Rovers v Sunderland

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mrblackbat
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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:09 pm

garnersfreshpint wrote:Ok so point taken on the 62 thing, I just feel a bit pissed off and let down by the amount of rovers fans who are talking about sacking ince already.

And yes, we shouldnt have to sell a player, and receive compo every season to stay afloat. But at the moment whats paying our teams wages, is the sky premier league money. (i have no idea of the exact fee) Its around 30 million. So for example if the shit did hit the fan and we were relagated thats a massive shortfall in income, also all of our playes would be de-valued.

The blackburn board are not ready to splash the cash, In fear of running our "small town" club into the ground. and I dont blame them.

Yes things are going a bit shit up at the moment, but i challenge any manager to put a team of 11 players together, all in ther natural postions, with 6 or 7 first team players injured/suspended/unavailable. As for Grella, Yes he has been a sicknote so far but give him a chance. He was still relatively cheap in terms of what players cost these days. As long as the 30million a player world continues, we are all doomed to look forward to just surviving.
The problem is, the shit is far more likely to hit the fan by being overly cautious and signing rubbish, which increases our chances of going down and losing that lovely TV money.

And we've managed to do far better than survive plenty of times, as have other teams on low budgets.

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:33 pm

doz_magic_man wrote:Apart from a few simpleton posts on the official board spouting "get Ince out", I haven't seen that many sensible people seriously suggesting that Ince should be sacked right now.

I personally have had reservations ever since Ince named his backroom staff and signed Robbie Fowler, but I would still give him until December. If we are in the bottom three by then though he HAS to go. That's not fickle, that's business.
For once I agree with you. The Fowler signing, and the comments from Ince about Fowler sent alarm bells ringing. Whilst Andrews isn't completely shit, I find it worrying that Ince initially put out that we wouldn't be interested in him, yet we ended up signing him. We've also brought Jansen back in, with a faint glimmer of signing him. These things indicate to me that the focus isn't really in the right place.

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Dr Rover » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:28 am

garnersfreshpint wrote:dont remember villanueva being right footed?

A 40 year old midfielder and a slow as fuck, couldnt trap a bag of sand waster so called "axe"?

Ill keep my faith in Ince thanks...
Ridiculous comments. Tugay can still play - as he proved when he came on last Saturday. You dont NEED to be quick when you have his football brain and the ability to put the ball whereever you want it. And having an enforcer alongside him to do his running, give the ball to him as much as possible is one way of compensating for his age. Plus, a dynamic midfielder like Andrews along side him would also be complimentary i think.

And there have been plenty of examples where left footed players can play right wing and impact on the game - especially in an emergency where we have no other real alternative.

If you think that the team Ince played last weekend was more balanced and had a better chance of winning that game than the one Moon posted, well, I would seriously question your judgement.

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:12 am

If no one wants Ince sacked, then why are so many setting down conditions as to when he should be sacked?

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Dr Rover » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:49 am

Rover the Top wrote:If no one wants Ince sacked, then why are so many setting down conditions as to when he should be sacked?

Because at the moment, most of us still believe that he can turn it around. However, if we don't start picking up points against teams in and amongst us, then that opinion is going to rapidly change. Most of us know we are not a bottom three club - that we have the players to be in the top half.

Surely, you can't expect people to be praising Ince at a time when he is making decisions that lots of us find very strange. Of course we are going to question his decisions - it's our right as fans, and in most of our case, paying fans. Do you really believe that we would have dropped the points we have if we'd played our players in their proper playing positions. I don't have a crystal ball, but i firmly believe we'd have more points that we do now. That's not to say I don't believe Ince will make better decisions in the future, but he has to learn from his mistakes, take some responsibility and move on. We are approaching some fixtures where are bnow going to be must win games, even this early in the season. We can't get adrift at the bottom.

Although, I myself wouldn't put time limits on how long Ince has to turn it around, I can understand why other people do. Once you are down there fighting for survival, it's really difficult to get yourself out of it.

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:08 am

Dr Rover wrote:
Rover the Top wrote:If no one wants Ince sacked, then why are so many setting down conditions as to when he should be sacked?

Because at the moment, most of us still believe that he can turn it around. However, if we don't start picking up points against teams in and amongst us, then that opinion is going to rapidly change. Most of us know we are not a bottom three club - that we have the players to be in the top half.

Surely, you can't expect people to be praising Ince at a time when he is making decisions that lots of us find very strange. Of course we are going to question his decisions - it's our right as fans, and in most of our case, paying fans. Do you really believe that we would have dropped the points we have if we'd played our players in their proper playing positions. I don't have a crystal ball, but i firmly believe we'd have more points that we do now. That's not to say I don't believe Ince will make better decisions in the future, but he has to learn from his mistakes, take some responsibility and move on. We are approaching some fixtures where are bnow going to be must win games, even this early in the season. We can't get adrift at the bottom.

Although, I myself wouldn't put time limits on how long Ince has to turn it around, I can understand why other people do. Once you are down there fighting for survival, it's really difficult to get yourself out of it.
You don't have to praise someone just to say they don't deserve the sack? :-? You may not be doing it, but there are people putting time limits on how long they want to give Ince. There's some who think he's had time enough already. There's some fans who've not even been prepared to give him a chance. I can't get my head round that, he's barely had time to make mistakes, never mind learn from them. To me, it seems an over-reaction to even mention sacking him yet. We may be in the bottom 3, but we've not had an untypical start to the season in terms of picking up points. We're not cut adrift, a win would make a big difference. Two wins, and people will start talking about us reaching Europe again. It's obviously a concern that we're so near the bottom, but at the same time it's a surprise that there aren't 3 or 4 clubs still in single figures. Our situation isn't the same as Spurs' was, they've had 4 excellent results since sacking their manager and are still below us.

And I don't think playing players out of position has cost us points. Warnock has looked at home in midfield, until he stopped playing altogether in the second half on Saturday, which would have been as much of a problem if he was at left back. And at the moment, we have to play someone out of position on the right, otherwise we'll have an unbalanced side which probably would cost us points. And I'm surprised at your argument that Mokoena is a centre half, I think everyone knows he's crap there, and that Hughes used him as a midfielder. Ince isn't the first manager to move players around, Hughes did it, Souness did it, Dalglish did it, MacKay did it...

What I do think is a problem is that our strikers are being wasteful in front of goal; our goalkeeper has let in a few goals from fairly central (and therefore reachable) shots; injuries have meant we've not been able to keep a consistent side together, leaving us disorganised; and players are not looking to cover when team-mates get caught out of position - some of that's down to not having a settled side, but it's something Ince should be sorting out.

I'm with Garners, I feel a bit let down that fans are talking about sacking Ince already. The game is not as black and white as people make out, we can't automatically count our next three matches as three defeats, just as we couldn't count the game as Sunderland as a win. Saturday reminded me so much of when we were beaten by Leeds at home in 2004 - with just 6 games left, we'd lost 5 and won 1 of our last 8 games, and were that bad I couldn't see how we could avoid relegation. But we won our next 4 games and beat Man Utd to secure our PL status with two games to go. I'm not anticipating that our second half surrender will become a common occurrence, I was happy with how we played in the first half, and we got a win last Wednesday. I think we're due a surprise win now.

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Gibbon » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:22 am

Word! :hyper:

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:35 am

Wrod! :hyper:

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Heysham Rover » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:59 am

I honestly think we will beat Spuds, their teflon tommy in net is atrocious!! I think the 'sack Ince' brigade should be pointed in the direction of BRFCs as that seems to be the home of rumour mongering and wild panic, surprised Nicko hasnt reared his head to inform all that Ten Cate has been released from his Pana.. abduction and is due at Rovers this week!!

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Gibbon » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:03 pm

Heysham Rover wrote:I honestly think we will beat Spuds, their teflon tommy in net is atrocious!! I think the 'sack Ince' brigade should be pointed in the direction of BRFCs as that seems to be the home of rumour mongering and wild panic, surprised Nicko hasnt reared his head to inform all that Ten Cate has been released from his Pana.. abduction and is due at Rovers this week!!
I think they've dropped Gomes. :(

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Heysham Rover » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:07 pm

I know they have sacked his goalkeeping coach today

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Dr Rover » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:52 pm

Rover the Top wrote: You don't have to praise someone just to say they don't deserve the sack? :-? You may not be doing it, but there are people putting time limits on how long they want to give Ince. There's some who think he's had time enough already. There's some fans who've not even been prepared to give him a chance. I can't get my head round that, he's barely had time to make mistakes, never mind learn from them. To me, it seems an over-reaction to even mention sacking him yet. We may be in the bottom 3, but we've not had an untypical start to the season in terms of picking up points. We're not cut adrift, a win would make a big difference. Two wins, and people will start talking about us reaching Europe again. It's obviously a concern that we're so near the bottom, but at the same time it's a surprise that there aren't 3 or 4 clubs still in single figures. Our situation isn't the same as Spurs' was, they've had 4 excellent results since sacking their manager and are still below us.

And I don't think playing players out of position has cost us points. Warnock has looked at home in midfield, until he stopped playing altogether in the second half on Saturday, which would have been as much of a problem if he was at left back. And at the moment, we have to play someone out of position on the right, otherwise we'll have an unbalanced side which probably would cost us points. And I'm surprised at your argument that Mokoena is a centre half, I think everyone knows he's crap there, and that Hughes used him as a midfielder. Ince isn't the first manager to move players around, Hughes did it, Souness did it, Dalglish did it, MacKay did it...

What I do think is a problem is that our strikers are being wasteful in front of goal; our goalkeeper has let in a few goals from fairly central (and therefore reachable) shots; injuries have meant we've not been able to keep a consistent side together, leaving us disorganised; and players are not looking to cover when team-mates get caught out of position - some of that's down to not having a settled side, but it's something Ince should be sorting out.

I'm with Garners, I feel a bit let down that fans are talking about sacking Ince already. The game is not as black and white as people make out, we can't automatically count our next three matches as three defeats, just as we couldn't count the game as Sunderland as a win. Saturday reminded me so much of when we were beaten by Leeds at home in 2004 - with just 6 games left, we'd lost 5 and won 1 of our last 8 games, and were that bad I couldn't see how we could avoid relegation. But we won our next 4 games and beat Man Utd to secure our PL status with two games to go. I'm not anticipating that our second half surrender will become a common occurrence, I was happy with how we played in the first half, and we got a win last Wednesday. I think we're due a surprise win now.
Playing a player out of position is not such a bad thing - playing 5 players out of position is.

My argument out Mokoena was valid - he's crap as a midfielder and he's crap as a centre half. But if you were to ask him where his best position is, he would say centre half - i know because I've actually asked him. He feels he is being asked to play out of position when he plays centre midfield, but does a job there cause the team need it.

I think experimenting with players in the side is not such a bad thing - as long as you dont change too much at once. Perhaps its the scientist in me, but how do you actually know what is successful or unsuccesful if you change 5 variables at once. And when a team is on a bad run of form, the one thing you need is a good solid, settled defence. We havent had that

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:19 pm

Sure, we need a settled defence. But has it been possible to establish a settled defence? Ooijer, Samba and Robinson have had injuries. Warnock was moved into midfield as an emergency measure, the experiment worked well, so he was left there. People weren't happy with the performances from Nelsen and Samba. We could have left Ooijer out on Saturday and kept Olsson at left back, but then some people would be critical that we'd left one of our best defenders out.

That seems to be one of the main problems we have, everyone has an opinion of what Ince should be doing, but none of these opinions are compatible with each other. We can't move Warnock back into defence and keep the same back four. We can't keep a consistent line-up and drop under-performing players. And anyone moaning about playing players out of position on right midfield needs a bit of Derren Brown's mind-trickery to come up with a better solution.

Besides, players in their normal positions were just as guilty of incompetence on Saturday. Roberts was crap. Simpson was crap. Zurab looked shaky. Villanueva was hopeless. Robinson made a mess of things. It couldn't just be about playing players in the wrong positions, because that hadn't mattered in the first half.

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Joe » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:26 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Heysham Rover wrote:I honestly think we will beat Spuds, their teflon tommy in net is atrocious!! I think the 'sack Ince' brigade should be pointed in the direction of BRFCs as that seems to be the home of rumour mongering and wild panic, surprised Nicko hasnt reared his head to inform all that Ten Cate has been released from his Pana.. abduction and is due at Rovers this week!!
I think they've dropped Gomes. :(
At least it's a change from him dropping things......... :wave:

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Re: Rovers v Sunderland

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:30 pm

Maybe Redknapp asked him to select the team? :idea:

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