Rovers vs Wigan

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mrblackbat
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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by mrblackbat » Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:59 am

It'll be Monday before there's any news of a sacking anyway; blood sucking lawyers don't work Sundays.

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Gaz
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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Gaz » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:01 pm

Going to the JJB yesterday I was so pumped up for the match. I really thought this was going to be the start of a little winning run for us. After 13 minutes all that positivity was thrown right out the window. I just could not believe what I was seeing before my eyes. Not for a long time have I seen such a disorganised and dis-spirated Rovers team. It really was so upsetting to watch. At least against Sunderland there was some positives to take form the match i.e the first half performance, but I can not think of one yesterday. So many players out there yesterday just din't look interested and basically didn't give a fuck (a certain Mr. Cruz springs to mind...) All I have to say to that is, if you don't take pride in wearing the Rovers shirt then fuck off else where!!!!!

On the way back I was trying to think whats gone wrong. How has a genuine top 10 team turned into the shambles I just witnessed? Is the manager 100% to blame? I don't think so. Lets be honest, only 2 players on that pitch were his signings and pretty much everyone of us would have picked the same 11 he did. Once the players cross that white line, it is them that have to take the responsibility. Paul Ince wasn't playing at left back yesterday. Warnock made Valencia (who I think we should have got to replace Bentley) look like Lionel Messi yesterday. What he was doing for that 2nd goal God knows :doh: the lady sat infront of me had an Engalnd shirt with Warnock on the back. I just hope for her sake Warnocks her surname and it wasn't for our Stevie!!! Maybe the players don't want to play for Ince?? The talk in the dressing room however suggests otherwise. I just can't put my finger on it.

I don't think Ince will get sacked this week. A defaet against Stoke however........

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Dr Rover » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:59 pm

I seriously think we should just drop Robinson and the whole of the back 4 for the game against Stoke. Hell, play the youth team defenders instead - they'll do a better job.

I am totally sick of making excuses for players and the manager now. Someone has to be big enough to take some responsibility.

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by ariversider » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:48 pm

Dr Rover wrote:I seriously think we should just drop Robinson and the whole of the back 4 for the game against Stoke. Hell, play the youth team defenders instead - they'll do a better job.

I am totally sick of making excuses for players and the manager now. Someone has to be big enough to take some responsibility.
Doc - that responsibility is now with the board - we will now find out if JW etal actually have balls

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Dr Rover » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:38 am

ariversider wrote:
Dr Rover wrote:I seriously think we should just drop Robinson and the whole of the back 4 for the game against Stoke. Hell, play the youth team defenders instead - they'll do a better job.

I am totally sick of making excuses for players and the manager now. Someone has to be big enough to take some responsibility.
Doc - that responsibility is now with the board - we will now find out if JW etal actually have balls
Indeed...

But, whilst Ince is ultimately the one responsible for the team, I think the players have to stand up and take some responsibility too. The back 4 on Saturday where pretty much a back 4 that had played so well under Hughes, and yet they looked like a bunch of school boys who'd never played together before. Both full backs where absolutely atrocious, and neither centre half looked like they should be playing for the local pub team, let alone a premiership outfit.

We hear all this talk that the dressing room is still with Ince, and that they all want to turn it around for him - i see NO evidence of that where it really matters, on the field. Talk is cheap, it's time to see some action.

If it where me, in all seriousness i'd drop the the lot of the defenders and play the reserves / youth team there. They can't be any worse, and at least they might have something to prove.

I feel a real reluctance to vent my anger towards Ince, because i dont think its all his fault. But in the end, he is the one with the responsibility, and as yet I have not heard him once admit he has made a mistake in any of the games we've played. He needs to have held his hands up and taken some of the responsibility instead of whinging at the media for all his problems. He inherited a good squad, a top ten squad, and right now we dont even look like a championship side.

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:25 am

I think the fault is entirely with Ince. Two things have been changed since Hughes left - we're not pressing in midfield, and the midfield seem to have been relieved of their duties in getting back to cover for the defence. It's easy to point the finger at the back 4 because ultimately they're the ones who make the mistakes, but the reason why they're making so many mistakes is because they're being left to do all the defending on their own. Since it's been that way all season, I can only assume Ince wants us to back off and has told the midfielders to hold their positions.

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Dr Rover » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:36 am

Rover the Top wrote:I think the fault is entirely with Ince. Two things have been changed since Hughes left - we're not pressing in midfield, and the midfield seem to have been relieved of their duties in getting back to cover for the defence. It's easy to point the finger at the back 4 because ultimately they're the ones who make the mistakes, but the reason why they're making so many mistakes is because they're being left to do all the defending on their own. Since it's been that way all season, I can only assume Ince wants us to back off and has told the midfielders to hold their positions.
I used to think that too - but now I'm not so sure.

After seeing some of the pitiful attempts at defending this year, i think alot of the problem lies with them. You can talk about midfield pressing all you want, but the type of individual errors being made by our defenders points to a lack of concentration and/or technique. No amount of fluffing of the situation can disguise that. Rather than dumping all the blame on the midfield, which hasnt been as strong as last year admittedly, blame the players that are actually making the school boy mistakes. Being goalside of your opponent when defending is standard stuff, and to get basic defending like that wrong at premiership level is criminal.

In the end, Ince is responsible for how the team sets out, the day to day coaching and ultimately the development of the players, and as has been said before, we are going backwards. So yeah, in that sense, it is all Ince's fault. But Nelsen et al seemed to do the basics right last year for Hughes, i dont see why they cant this year for Ince

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:09 am

Dr Rover wrote:But Nelsen et al seemed to do the basics right last year for Hughes, i dont see why they cant this year for Ince
That is exactly my point. To say the players aren't good enough doesn't make sense, as we've seen them all play well in the past. I wasn't blaming the midfielders, I was blaming Ince for changing the system. By my reckoning, Warnock's averaged a silly mistake a game since joining us. However, under Hughes, we were always prepared to suddenly lose possession, so he got away with most of them. This year, we seem to be set up only for when things go right - hence why if anyone makes a mistake, it usually means a shot on goal. It's an obvious thing, the more pressure the defence is under, the more likely they are to crack.

Valencia went a long way unchallenged for both their first two goals as defenders (first Nelsen and then Warnock) were concerned about leaving another attacking player free. If they had committed to a challenge, then they'd still look like they'd mad a mistake, because Valencia would have made an easy pass to the player they had left. That's when the midfielders should be busting a gut to help out, not casually watching from 20 yards behind.

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Dr Rover » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:02 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Dr Rover wrote:But Nelsen et al seemed to do the basics right last year for Hughes, i dont see why they cant this year for Ince
That is exactly my point. To say the players aren't good enough doesn't make sense, as we've seen them all play well in the past. I wasn't blaming the midfielders, I was blaming Ince for changing the system. By my reckoning, Warnock's averaged a silly mistake a game since joining us. However, under Hughes, we were always prepared to suddenly lose possession, so he got away with most of them. This year, we seem to be set up only for when things go right - hence why if anyone makes a mistake, it usually means a shot on goal. It's an obvious thing, the more pressure the defence is under, the more likely they are to crack.

Valencia went a long way unchallenged for both their first two goals as defenders (first Nelsen and then Warnock) were concerned about leaving another attacking player free. If they had committed to a challenge, then they'd still look like they'd mad a mistake, because Valencia would have made an easy pass to the player they had left. That's when the midfielders should be busting a gut to help out, not casually watching from 20 yards behind.
I really think you are over egging the pudding a bit. Sure, the midfield hasn't been as strong as last year, and yeah, perhaps thats had an effect. But the mistakes the defenders are making are such basic ones that it cannot be just a a simple case of the midfield not tracking. For their second gaol for instance, Pederson was tracking back covering their overlapping runner. He might not have been goal side, but he was there. Warnock just made a lunatic decision to leave his man, and the ball in the most dangerous area of the pitch. Same with the first goal. Heskey made a fair enough run, but Ooijer should've been goal side covering that run - simple basic defending .

Anyway, I think it's time for a change myself. As i said, the manager has the responsibility in the end, and if he cant get his players to perform, perhaps some else can

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:04 am

Warnock's always done things like that though.

There's something fundamentally wrong with the way the players are being told to play; we've gone from well drilled to completely sloppy and disorganised. That to me points to the backroom staff.

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:22 am

It's not just a simple case of the defenders have suddenly forgotten everything they know, either. You can go through the entire side, and nothing is working as it should be. It's all very reminiscent of what we were like before Hughes took over, and I always felt then that we left our back 4 with too much to do. Another thing I've noticed is that we're always looking to run onto passes instead of coming towards the ball. What's usually happening is that the ball is intercepted by a defender, when we could easily have kept possession. I assume that's down to instruction from the bench, and it's not working.

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Dr Rover » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:37 am

Rover the Top wrote:It's not just a simple case of the defenders have suddenly forgotten everything they know, either. You can go through the entire side, and nothing is working as it should be. It's all very reminiscent of what we were like before Hughes took over, and I always felt then that we left our back 4 with too much to do. Another thing I've noticed is that we're always looking to run onto passes instead of coming towards the ball. What's usually happening is that the ball is intercepted by a defender, when we could easily have kept possession. I assume that's down to instruction from the bench, and it's not working.
Oh, i completely agree. I have gone over Ince's tactical ineptitude a number of times before on this board, along with his inability to coach. its the reason I think he should be replaced.

But, having said all that, it shouldn't have affected the defenders as much as it has. No matter what, they shouldn't be making the type of individual errors that they are. Again, I point to the first two goals we conceded on Saturday. Both were individual errors that defenders shouldn't be making, regardless of who is their manager.

Whilst i think Ince has to go, I also think the players need to take some of the responsibility.

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:39 am

Dr Rover wrote:
Rover the Top wrote:It's not just a simple case of the defenders have suddenly forgotten everything they know, either. You can go through the entire side, and nothing is working as it should be. It's all very reminiscent of what we were like before Hughes took over, and I always felt then that we left our back 4 with too much to do. Another thing I've noticed is that we're always looking to run onto passes instead of coming towards the ball. What's usually happening is that the ball is intercepted by a defender, when we could easily have kept possession. I assume that's down to instruction from the bench, and it's not working.
Oh, i completely agree. I have gone over Ince's tactical ineptitude a number of times before on this board, along with his inability to coach. its the reason I think he should be replaced.

But, having said all that, it shouldn't have affected the defenders as much as it has. No matter what, they shouldn't be making the type of individual errors that they are. Again, I point to the first two goals we conceded on Saturday. Both were individual errors that defenders shouldn't be making, regardless of who is their manager.

Whilst i think Ince has to go, I also think the players need to take some of the responsibility.
At the same time, the last few interviews with Ince have all been blaming the players. If you're continually getting blamed by the manager, are you really going to take the responsibility?

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:50 am

I agree that the defenders shouldn't be making mistakes. But people are more likely to make mistakes when under pressure. And given that we're leaking goals, low on confidence, and generally disorganised from a tactical point of view, I think the pressure is causing our defenders to forget the fundamentals and make mistakes that you wouldn't expect to see. Just spotted this from Kevin Gallacher, who seems to be making the same point. http://www.setanta.com//uk/Articles/Foo ... nid-31403/

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Re: Rovers vs Wigan

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:15 pm

Some good points made there; and it does seem like Ince's stubborn attitude towards not changing tactics will have cost him his job.

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