Where are they now?

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Ethiaa
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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Ethiaa » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:59 pm

Simon wrote:You can't have the right to free speech and the right to not be offended.
You can have the right to free speech and the humanism to use it appropriately. I've no idea what you are arguing however. Maybe that free speech and the existence of racist comments have to go together? Perhaps. I'm a fierce advocate of a right to free speech. I'm also a fierce advocate of pointing out when that right is being used to discriminate against others and why that's wrong. These things are not incompatible. In no way does the right to free speech make people who use of racist language in some way justified. They are still tossers - with legal protection to be such. Telling people why it's wrong isn't trying to restrict their right to freedom of speech.

The 'logic' would read...

I have freedom of speech
Under freedom of speech I can say racist things
Therefore if I'm told not to say racist things you're removing my right to free speech

This is a false syllogism.

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:05 pm

Simon wrote:
Ethiaa wrote:Thanks for backing me up there for those who can't type define:racism
Well it's not how you defined it. There was no air of racial superiority to what's been said.

The jibe was tame and the line between expressing freedom of speech and racism hasn't been anywhere near crossed. Heck, Japanese people do talk like that by and large and probably do like lemon chicken with fried rice. I recently learnt of someone from Burnley who is marrying their 1st cousin.
Even though lemon chicken and fried rice is a chinese dish? ;) And I know quite a few Japanese people, and non talk like that. Most have better English than I do.

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by theadore » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:23 pm

??? that is the same right

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:46 pm

What, Chinese and Japanese?

Yeah, sure, why not. :P

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by theadore » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:22 am

Grrrr... The internet should tell you that you haven't read the whole thread

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:47 am

This racism discussion has lost its way somewhere. Statements regarding definitions and what rights people have are well argued and correct. But nobody has actually connected them to show fault in the original comment. There was no generalisation made, and no evidence of a belief of superiority. And it's not even close to being derogatory. The world of enterainment would struggle to keep going if actors were prevented from adopting the character of someone other than themselves because of concerns that someone might be offended by it.

Not to mention, accents don't belong to races anyway. It's common enough for people to change their accents when they move to new surroundings - I've heard it happen with both my brother and sister, and I'm sure we've all heard Steve McClaren turn Dutch...

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:03 am

Rover the Top wrote:This racism discussion has lost its way somewhere. Statements regarding definitions and what rights people have are well argued and correct. But nobody has actually connected them to show fault in the original comment. There was no generalisation made, and no evidence of a belief of superiority. And it's not even close to being derogatory. The world of enterainment would struggle to keep going if actors were prevented from adopting the character of someone other than themselves because of concerns that someone might be offended by it.

Not to mention, accents don't belong to races anyway. It's common enough for people to change their accents when they move to new surroundings - I've heard it happen with both my brother and sister, and I'm sure we've all heard Steve McClaren turn Dutch...
Gotta disagree there. Comment regarding Judo led to comment using what is a stereotype of a Chinese accent. A stereotype is a generalisation I believe.

You cannot possibly state it's not even close to derogatory. That is also a generalisation. It may not be close to derogatory to YOU. Putting your values on others is, um, a generalisation. Again.

Why don't you go and walk through China town in Manchester doing this mock 'Chinese accent' and see the reaction. Would you feel comfortable doing it?

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:00 am

Some might say your little yellow face with a karate headband was just as mocking. By your standards that could be taken as a racist image. Of course, I'm intelligent enough to realise all the smilies have yellow faces, but I'm not the one arguing that it's how the image is received rather than the intent that matters.

Would I walk through Chinatown doing a Chinese accent simply for the sake of it - of course not. Firstly, I'm crap at accents and secondly if I couldn't justify doing it I'd expect it to be perceived as a wind up. But if I was in Chinatown and for whatever reason it was relevant to quote a Jackie Chan film, I wouldn't drop the accent and edit it into the Queen's English just in case a Chinese person heard me and took offence. Context and intent make the difference.

Like you say, putting your values on others is a generalisation, maybe you should stop trying to do it?

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Dangeross » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:06 am

so wilcox is teaching judo? and mcclaren has turned dutch? i'm learning so much from this thread

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:06 am

Rover the Top wrote:Some might say your little yellow face with a karate headband was just as mocking. By your standards that could be taken as a racist image. Of course, I'm intelligent enough to realise all the smilies have yellow faces, but I'm not the one arguing that it's how the image is received rather than the intent that matters.

Would I walk through Chinatown doing a Chinese accent simply for the sake of it - of course not. Firstly, I'm crap at accents and secondly if I couldn't justify doing it I'd expect it to be perceived as a wind up. But if I was in Chinatown and for whatever reason it was relevant to quote a Jackie Chan film, I wouldn't drop the accent and edit it into the Queen's English just in case a Chinese person heard me and took offence. Context and intent make the difference.

Like you say, putting your values on others is a generalisation, maybe you should stop trying to do it?
Not sure I am - pointing out what is stereotypical and often considered insulting isn't putting my values on others. It's educational. I'm not forcing anyone to behave like me - I'm saying they are idiots if they perpetuate stereotypes.

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:21 am

Ethiaa wrote:pointing out what is... ...often considered insulting isn't putting my values on others.
Er, actually, it is. You've placed a value on what counts as 'often'. You've made the point that it's not about what an individual decides is offensive, but that's exactly what you are doing.

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:32 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Ethiaa wrote:pointing out what is... ...often considered insulting isn't putting my values on others.
Er, actually, it is. You've placed a value on what counts as 'often'. You've made the point that it's not about what an individual decides is offensive, but that's exactly what you are doing.
Often can be an awful lot of values. Lets take some extremes not often or very regularly - the frequency of it being insulting doesn't lessen how insulting it is. Even if things aren't found insulting, that doesn't mean they aren't used in a derogatory manner. The often is neither generalising nor really relevant.

There is a history of the use of such stereotypes as used in the Chinese accent comment to insult. Not sure there is any history of the use of smilies to do the same.

Also, I've said it's not about what YOU decide is offensive as the person making a statement, not just any random individual. Important distinction.

Going back to the original comment, how was that in anyway contextually justified? I can see no link either by content or cultural accuracy.

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Simon » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:28 am

Ethiaa wrote:
Rover the Top wrote:This racism discussion has lost its way somewhere. Statements regarding definitions and what rights people have are well argued and correct. But nobody has actually connected them to show fault in the original comment. There was no generalisation made, and no evidence of a belief of superiority. And it's not even close to being derogatory. The world of enterainment would struggle to keep going if actors were prevented from adopting the character of someone other than themselves because of concerns that someone might be offended by it.

Not to mention, accents don't belong to races anyway. It's common enough for people to change their accents when they move to new surroundings - I've heard it happen with both my brother and sister, and I'm sure we've all heard Steve McClaren turn Dutch...
Gotta disagree there. Comment regarding Judo led to comment using what is a stereotype of a Chinese accent. A stereotype is a generalisation I believe.

You cannot possibly state it's not even close to derogatory. That is also a generalisation. It may not be close to derogatory to YOU. Putting your values on others is, um, a generalisation. Again.

Why don't you go and walk through China town in Manchester doing this mock 'Chinese accent' and see the reaction. Would you feel comfortable doing it?
I'm going up to chinatown in about an hour. A challenge is it? :scratch:

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:29 am

Simon wrote:I'm going up to chinatown in about an hour. A challenge is it? :scratch:
Go for it, I'd be interested to see the response you got. And any bruises :D

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Re: Where are they now?

Post by Simon » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:34 am

I just don't think pointing out light hearted setereotypes of a culture is particularly offensive. People of other nations will poke fun at our attributes, it just seems to become unacceptable when the person is of another skin colour, despite skin colour having nothing to do with it.

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