4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Discuss all things Rovers related except...
User avatar
Darth Rover
Ageing international
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 6:27 pm
Contact:

4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Darth Rover » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:54 pm

Rovers started the season with 4-4-2 and because none of our strikers at that time couldn't score in a brothel Sam quickly gave us 4-5-1 in hope that it would be better. None of rovers current strikers are any good at collecting and holding the ball whilst the midfielders arrive so why persist with it. Kalinic i believe can score goals if he has the support of a fellow striker.

User avatar
SheepShagginRover
Unemployed ex-pro
Posts: 5678
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:20 pm
Location: Aberdeen
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by SheepShagginRover » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:12 pm

4-4-1-1?

Savory
Promising manager
Posts: 10878
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:34 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Savory » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:39 am

4-1-3-1-1?
Last edited by Savory on Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

RoverSteve
Valued squad member
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:57 pm
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by RoverSteve » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:49 am

a 4-5-1 is ok if it works like a 4-3-3 when attacking. but i dont really think we have the wide players. 4-1-3-1 would be great if dunn was fit all the time and basturk actually played. otherwise i'd always go for 4-4-2, we get a couple of good centre midfielders and a new striker and we'll be much more formidable.

i dont think we'd miss not playing diouf every week, and andrews can be used as a utility player. :D

User avatar
mrblackbat
Promising manager
Posts: 14654
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:12 am

I've always thought you didn't really need full out wide players for the 4-3-3 Chelsea sort of tactic to work... :scratch:

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 27056
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:21 am

RoverSteve wrote:a 4-5-1 is ok if it works like a 4-3-3 when attacking.
A starting formation will always change whilst the game is in play as players move around the pitch looking for space. For example, full backs will overlap the winger, or central defenders will join the attack at a set piece. It doesn't mean that every time this happens, the formation changes. You need players to push forward from a 5-man midfield, but that doesn't mean you're playing 3 forwards when you have the ball, it remains a 4-5-1 formation. The difference might seem subtle, but it's meant as an indication of what roles each player should be performing, not where they are on the pitch at a given moment.

I don't really mind whether we use a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1. But I think there's one reason why neither system has appeared to work at times this season. And that's because Allardyce keeps using two holding midfielders, usually Nzonzi and Andrews. In both systems it means we lack numbers forward to aim for with our attacks, and since both players have the same responsibilities they either go for the same balls or leave each other to deal with any threat. Nzozni plays far better when he knows it's his job only to get across to the player with the ball. And the team creates more because there's more options in attacking positions. But Allardyce loses his bottle after trying this more positive approach for a few games, and sticks the extra defensive midfielder in again. :roll:

User avatar
Darth Rover
Ageing international
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 6:27 pm
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Darth Rover » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:56 pm

I would hope Sam signs a forward with a strong physical presence next season and plays 4-4-2. Where rovers are concerned i'm a traditionalist and the best rovers teams have always had good wingers with two forwards. Brotherstone, Miller, Wilcox, Ripley to mention only a few. Today we have MGP, Emerton, Hoilett, Diouf and Olsson who can operate on the flanks. Put Kalinic up front with a Santa Cruz type player and we'll be on to a winner.

User avatar
joep89
Experienced international star
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:41 pm
Location: Liverpool Uni/ Blackburn
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by joep89 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:08 pm

I have no objections playing 4-5-1 when it is employed in a way that can damage a team. For example, when Kalinic plays up front alone, he is often marooned without any support, that is until the significant distance between the midfield and himself is bridged by a player like Dunn. The thing we are lacking is wing play. The type of player that we need is one that can surge forward and drag the play along, helping him to create space in which to move. As we all know Kalinic seems to have a natural ability to find gaps to move for the ball, but I think holding up the play and waiting for the rest of the squad to join him is the wrong sort of 4-51 to play. Ideally, the two wingers would push forward, or lacking this, some advanced playmakers e.g Dunn would work perfectly. However, the pace is not there for us to create this sort of counter attacking move. Speed is necessary nowadays to punish most teams in the league, and I think one, or maybe two new faces in midfield will be perfect in the 4-5-1 set up. Hopefully Hoillett can continue to improve in pre season and cement a place that is there for the taking.

4-4-2 would work, but there is no real movement when we play like this under Sam. Everyone is given their roles and there is a degree of rigidity in our play, whereas with 4-5-1, the midfield is forced to move up and attack/support wherever the game is taking place. I just think a bit of change in midfield is all we need. Maybe Nzonzi as a holding midfielder, two wingers from Olsson, Pedersen, Emerton and Hoilett, and I'd argue for now that the attacking midfielders should be Diouf and Dunn. That's right Diouf, because he manages to hold the play better in recent games, and is a nuisance in harassing the defences when he is playing, which should help to unnerve those that are keeping an eye on Kalinic. He can also drop a little deeper when needed, and allow Dunn to move forward. Both of these players would be capable of getting into the box and scoring, and also releasing the wingers to try and put in a cross.

I think 4-5-1 is the best, but should be employed with a bit more initiative(summary for those who cannot be bothered with my essay!) 8)

RoverSteve
Valued squad member
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:57 pm
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by RoverSteve » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:26 pm

you're all quite like, i think after this season and the last however months we've had under sam, i wish we had a bit more quality in the squad.

Jimmy James
Valued squad member
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:35 pm
Location: Between the Mersey and the Ribble
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Jimmy James » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:39 pm

4 - 5 - 1 or 4 - 4 - 2? :-?
In theory playing four five one can be as attacking as four four two. (In theory anyway!) So if a team playing this formation keeps pressing down towards the opponents - using the full width of the pitch - then okay it can be attacking.
Hang on, hang on......but the centre forward in four five one has no partner to play off. So he keeps having to drop deeper or wait till support arrives from midfield. Doh! :idea:
So why not have two centre forwards and play 4 - 4 - 2 Sam? Yeah! After all four four two seemed to work well with these (off the top of my head):
Shearer & Sutton (Rovers)
Wright & Bright (Palace)
Jones & Clarke (Leeds)
Keegan & Toshack (Liverool)
Hector & O'Hare (Derby)
- amongst others....so come on Sam be bold lad, be bold!

Savory
Promising manager
Posts: 10878
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:34 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Savory » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:07 pm

Jimmy James wrote:So why not have two centre forwards and play 4 - 4 - 2 Sam? Yeah! After all four four two seemed to work well with these (off the top of my head):
Shearer & Sutton (Rovers)
Wright & Bright (Palace)
Jones & Clarke (Leeds)
Keegan & Toshack (Liverool)
Hector & O'Hare (Derby)
- amongst others....so come on Sam be bold lad, be bold!
it aint gonna happen, besides, united, arsenal and liverpool now... dont they all play with one striker, only they have fast good wingers that like to go forward.

User avatar
mrblackbat
Promising manager
Posts: 14654
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:50 pm

Personally I don't think they have wingers at all, but that's probably semantics.

There are plenty of teams who still operate very successfully with two strikers.

User avatar
joep89
Experienced international star
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:41 pm
Location: Liverpool Uni/ Blackburn
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by joep89 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:55 pm

Arsenal have a surplus of small attacking midfielders, so they have no real choice but to play like that, especially with the injuries to their front line. Liverpool play with one striker because they only have one decent one, and pride themselves on the 'Gerrard/Torres partnership', and United have been playing Berbatov alongside Rooney recently.

Savory
Promising manager
Posts: 10878
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:34 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Savory » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:58 pm

I would love to see 442, but i'm being realistic...currently I think we're more of a threat with someone supporting Kalinic at the moment whether its Dunn or Peds, hopefully soon Basturk, just wish the guys on the wings did more of a job and made use of Kalinic up front, i know they've had little opportunities but Di Santo or Roberts fail to make any sort of impact when they come on, plus if we did two up front and one get injured, we'd be fucked.

We're a poor mans Liverpool then... Gerrard/Torres - Dunn/Kalinic :|

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 27056
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: 4-5-1 0r 4-4-2

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:11 pm

joep89 wrote:Arsenal have a surplus of small attacking midfielders, so they have no real choice but to play like that, especially with the injuries to their front line. Liverpool play with one striker because they only have one decent one, and pride themselves on the 'Gerrard/Torres partnership', and United have been playing Berbatov alongside Rooney recently.
So why do we play with any strikers? :scratch:

Post Reply