Bowyer leaves the club

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mcteeth
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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by mcteeth » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:27 pm

Selling Rochina was clearly the final nail in the coffin...

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:18 am

Ethiaa wrote:All of which assumes that two managers will play the same players and the same formation so that the game plays out in a similar fashion. I guess that the owners are hoping a different approach from the off will make the difference.
Well, um, no. We're not going to get a new squad of players with the manager, and changing formation won't prevent them from making mistakes or missing chances. The specific errors will change, as they do from game to game anyway. But generally, they'll still happen because they're down to the players, not the manager.

I'm not going to try and guess what the owners are hoping for. Their decision making still seems worryingly inconsistent, like they're throwing darts blindfolded.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:33 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Ethiaa wrote:All of which assumes that two managers will play the same players and the same formation so that the game plays out in a similar fashion. I guess that the owners are hoping a different approach from the off will make the difference.
Well, um, no. We're not going to get a new squad of players with the manager, and changing formation won't prevent them from making mistakes or missing chances. The specific errors will change, as they do from game to game anyway. But generally, they'll still happen because they're down to the players, not the manager.
Never said they wouldn't - but if you're 3-0 up instead of at 0-0 then those mistakes may not have such an influence on the result. A change in formation, a change in the approach of players, a change in the expectations can all impact in ways which change things enough to impact on results.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Dan » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:35 am

Chance in coaches could be the biggest influence, if we get someone in to show Duffy how to get a header on target we'll be fine :)

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:33 am

Ethiaa wrote: Never said they wouldn't - but if you're 3-0 up instead of at 0-0 then those mistakes may not have such an influence on the result. A change in formation, a change in the approach of players, a change in the expectations can all impact in ways which change things enough to impact on results.
And that impact can be positive or negative. Changing manager in the hope that it will have an effect that cancels out the real problems you have is a reckless gamble.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:41 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Ethiaa wrote: Never said they wouldn't - but if you're 3-0 up instead of at 0-0 then those mistakes may not have such an influence on the result. A change in formation, a change in the approach of players, a change in the expectations can all impact in ways which change things enough to impact on results.
And that impact can be positive or negative. Changing manager in the hope that it will have an effect that cancels out the real problems you have is a reckless gamble.
Again, never said it would be positive, just that it can be. The 'real problem' is a matter of opinion, not fact. You can only compare situations when you have a second one to hold it up against.

Although I was surprised by the decision, we actually have a pretty settled squad of players who are doing OK but not brilliant. You could see it as the ideal time to make a change to see if a different style and personality can get more out of them.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:27 am

What's not fact? That individual errors cause us to concede goals? That we're not converting chances we create? That we're under embargo giving us a disadvantage in this league? Or do you mean it's only my opinion that these are problems? :?

Given that we have a settled squad of players who are doing okay, you could also see it as a very dangerous time to start shaking things up. It's risky to assume the players have more to give another manager, I'm not sure there's much reason to believe it.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:37 am

Rover the Top wrote:What's not fact? That individual errors cause us to concede goals? That we're not converting chances we create? That we're under embargo giving us a disadvantage in this league?
It's not a fact that either of these are the "real problem" - your phrase. Obviously, the owners think the "real problem" is the management team. You don't. It's opinion, not fact. That an individual makes a mistake is a fact. That it is the central cause in losing a match can't be known because you don't know how changing other factors would change the course of the match.
Rover the Top wrote:Given that we have a settled squad of players who are doing okay, you could also see it as a very dangerous time to start shaking things up. It's risky to assume the players have more to give another manager, I'm not sure there's much reason to believe it.
I'm not sure there is much reason to believe that the squad will perform worse for a different semi-competent manager either.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:11 pm

Ethiaa wrote: I'm not sure there is much reason to believe that the squad will perform worse for a different semi-competent manager either.
There's plenty of examples of that happening in football. For instance, David Moyes proved himself as a manager at Preston and Everton, but couldn't get close to the title-winning form the Man Utd squad he took over had. There's always the potential for players to perform worse. But, looking through our squad, I don't think we've got many players who are under-performing compared to what they've done under other managers or at previous clubs. Where's the potential to be better?

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Hudson » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:31 pm

Getting some of the midfielders to chip in with some goals would be a start

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:23 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Ethiaa wrote: I'm not sure there is much reason to believe that the squad will perform worse for a different semi-competent manager either.
There's plenty of examples of that happening in football. For instance, David Moyes proved himself as a manager at Preston and Everton, but couldn't get close to the title-winning form the Man Utd squad he took over had. There's always the potential for players to perform worse. But, looking through our squad, I don't think we've got many players who are under-performing compared to what they've done under other managers or at previous clubs. Where's the potential to be better?
There is plenty of examples of the opposite happening too and a change of manager meaning a change in atmosphere and approach. Just moving one player into a position you'd assume they wouldn't play in can make a difference to an entire team. That's where the potential is - in thinking differently. The person that needs to change to implement different thinking is the manager. You seem to think that there is no way the players we have could ever do any better than they are doing now and that nobody else can get more out of them than Bowyer... negative much? :D

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:12 pm

Ethiaa wrote:You seem to think that there is no way the players we have could ever do any better than they are doing now and that nobody else can get more out of them than Bowyer... negative much? :D
Just going off the evidence. Because of financial restrictions, our signings have mainly been cast-offs and freebies from sides playing at this level. The odd one has been an overlooked gem (and the two best have now been sold), but mostly they're average Championship players. Their histories suggest that's all they are. And that leaves us with an ordinary-looking side that should expect mixed results and a mid-table finish. It's not impossible that there's someone out there who'll put Steele in midfield and Rhodes at right back and lead us on a 30-match winning streak to promotion. But with so many "bad" managers getting sacked every season, what are our chances of finding him?

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:17 pm

On the same basis, if they are all not that bad after all, there is a good chance of getting a perfectly acceptable one too and maybe that change will be what is needed. I wouldn't have got rid of Gary but there is a justification to doing so - just as there is one to not doing. Nobody can know at this point if it is the right decision or not.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:33 pm

Well, if you think there's a "good chance" of finding a needle in a haystack...

Not knowing whether it's a good decision or not makes it a reckless gamble. I don't need to know the outcome to criticise them for taking such a huge risk.

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Re: Bowyer leaves the club

Post by Ethiaa » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:48 pm

Rover the Top wrote:Well, if you think there's a "good chance" of finding a needle in a haystack...

Not knowing whether it's a good decision or not makes it a reckless gamble. I don't need to know the outcome to criticise them for taking such a huge risk.
Sorry but weren't you just saying how lots of sacked managers aren't bad managers (if you weren't then you should have been). There are lots of perfectly acceptable managers out there who will keep us exactly where we are. There is a chance they will do more. With sensible recruitment of that manager there should be the same needle in a haystack chance that anything calamitous will happen. It's only a huge risk if you don't know what you are doing and go and employ Steve Kean.

But if you think the only time you should change your management team is when you are about to get relegated, that's fair enough. It's one approach. Looks like the owners are looking to be more proactive. That's business people for you.

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