Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Discuss all International football at senior and youth levels
daib0
Valued squad member
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Spain (Pamplona) - England (Reading - back when possible)
Contact:

Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by daib0 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:12 pm

BBC Sport


Five senior members of the World Cup-winning US football team have filed a lawsuit against the national federation for wage discrimination


Alex Morgan, Carli Lloyd, Megan Rapinoe, Becky Sauerbrunn and Hope Solo say they are paid less than half of what the male USA players receive. "The numbers speak for themselves," said goalkeeper Solo in a statement.

The US Soccer Federation said it was disappointed, given the work it had done in building the women's game. American women's football has dominated the international game in recent decades, with a string of titles.

"We are the best in the world, have three World Cup Championships, four Olympic Championships, and the USMNT [men's team] get paid more just to show up than we get paid to win major championships," said Solo. Her team-mate Lloyd, who was named the best player at last year's World Cup, said they had been patient over the years in waiting for action to deliver fair pay.

Former Everton and LA Galaxy winger Landon Donovan - who won 157 caps for the US men's team - tweeted his support for the women's team's cause. "#USWNT absolutely deserve to be treated fairly in all ways," he said. "Important to remember that these issues are/can be collectively bargained."

The lawsuit against the US Soccer Federation was filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission on Thursday morning. One of the lawyers representing the players, Jeffrey Kessler, said the women's game generated more income for US Soccer than the men's and it was time to address the "discriminatory and unfair treatment'' they have endured for years. The five players were acting on behalf of all the players, he said.

There has been an ongoing legal battle between the federation and the players' union over collective bargaining. A statement from US Soccer said it had not yet seen the complaint. But it added: "We have been a world leader in women's soccer and are proud of the commitment we have made to building the women's game in the United States over the past 30 years."



My questions are:

Should women be paid the same for the 'same job'? - for example, in a symphony orchestra it would be inconceivable to have a difference

If not, due to publicity, popularity, and 'skill' levels, what proportion of the men's average pay should women receive? 50% / 66% / 75% / 80% etc.

Should the topic even be touched upon? One might argue that it is for each club or organization to bargain how they see fit. But in this case surely they will be open to far more law suits.

So ... in a nutshell, what is the solution to all this??

User avatar
Ethiaa
Site Admin
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:22 am
Location: Preston
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by Ethiaa » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:16 pm

I'd just like to say that Hope Solo has a brilliant name.

User avatar
Dan
Unemployed ex-pro
Posts: 6574
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:08 am
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by Dan » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:55 pm

daib0 wrote:
My questions are:

Should women be paid the same for the 'same job'? - for example, in a symphony orchestra it would be inconceivable to have a difference


The 'same job' doesn't even have equal pay in the men's team for two players at the same club. Why should one player be paid more than another anywhere within a club?

daib0 wrote:If not, due to publicity, popularity, and 'skill' levels, what proportion of the men's average pay should women receive? 50% / 66% / 75% / 80% etc.

In theory it should be equal, but there is too much money in football and too many variables that affect wages in the men's game for that even to begin to happen.

[/quote]

daib0 wrote:So ... in a nutshell, what is the solution to all this??
Let Donald Trump fix it :judge: :-?

daib0
Valued squad member
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Spain (Pamplona) - England (Reading - back when possible)
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by daib0 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:59 pm

I just feel this is a very difficult one to call ... that's why it's interesting reading your replies!



If it’s the MONEY … then:

The USA ladies should be paid the same or actually more than their male counterparts.

The USWNT Generates $8million more than the men each year. And that figure will grow again next year.

The ladies play more games than the men’s national team. And are at the top unlike the rather poor men’s team, who lost to Guatemala 2-0 on Saturday and were very close to not qualifying for the next world cup. Let alone win it.

User avatar
theadore
Inexperienced manager
Posts: 9520
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:25 pm

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by theadore » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:28 am

In theory this is one area where they should be able to argue for parity... at least their match fee (which I assume is how they are paid) should match that of a Male counterpart for playing a competitive match for their country, excepting any private sponsorship they may have in place.

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 26758
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:41 am

daib0 wrote: My questions are:

Should women be paid the same for the 'same job'? - for example, in a symphony orchestra it would be inconceivable to have a difference
Why would it be inconceivable to have a difference in a symphony orchestra? Surely the ability and reputation of the musician would have some influence over how much it cost to hire them? And I'd say it's very likely that players of the same instrument in different orchestras are paid differing amounts for a variety of reasons. In this instance, there isn't a "same job" for men and women in a football team. The sport is split in two by gender, the discrimination is made at entry level. They have to play for different teams against different opposition to different audiences and people will go round in circles trying to find equality where there is none. Maybe there's a case for the players being paid more, I don't know, but it shouldn't be tied to what the men earn.
If not, due to publicity, popularity, and 'skill' levels, what proportion of the men's average pay should women receive? 50% / 66% / 75% / 80% etc.
Sorry, but that's a daft question. Pay shouldn't be linked to what somebody else earns, it should be on the merit of the job done.
Should the topic even be touched upon? One might argue that it is for each club or organization to bargain how they see fit. But in this case surely they will be open to far more law suits.
Yes the topic should be touched. No one should be discriminated against because of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. But then it shouldn't be assumed every difference is due to unfair discrimination.
So ... in a nutshell, what is the solution to all this??
Scrap sexual discrimination in sport, have mixed teams and structure pay on an as-you-play and performance basis. :D There isn't a solution, sport celebrates inequality. The aim is to be better than equal.

daib0
Valued squad member
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Spain (Pamplona) - England (Reading - back when possible)
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by daib0 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:04 am

on the other hand, this from an American on my Reading forum:

A few other points to consider: The women, unlike the men, also draw a full-time salary from the federation of up to $72,000 per year regardless of their tournament performance or the hundreds of thousands in bonuses they typically collect, a baseline guarantee the men don't enjoy. They are also compensated by the federation for participating in the National Women's Soccer League. It is not quite as clear-cut as it might appear at first reading. If the women elect to drop those additional compensations so that each group of players are paid the performance bonuses only, then equal bonuses seem appropriate. Otherwise, you're speculating a bit on the value of a salary (and an additional income for participating in the NWSL) that the players are certain to get compared to the value of bonuses that are not guaranteed. See https://www.yahoo.com/sports/blogs/socc ... 34906.html for more details.

Part of the issue is that the men can make top salaries playing overseas, but the women have not been able to make nearly as much from 'regular' matches and leagues, so those salaries were created to let the women become full-time soccer players, independent of the bonus money. Even with the relative popularity of the women's team and their success, very few have been able to make much from endorsements (Alex Morgan and Hope Solo are exceptions, and I doubt they make as much as Landon Donovan).

User avatar
Gibbon
Promising manager
Posts: 17374
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:54 am
Location: Location: Location
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by Gibbon » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:37 pm

We should have a reading forum on here too. What's the last good book everyone read?

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 26758
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:44 pm

Gibbon wrote:We should have a reading forum on here too. What's the last good book everyone read?
Peter and Jane.

User avatar
Dan
Unemployed ex-pro
Posts: 6574
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:08 am
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by Dan » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:50 pm

:lol:
Thinking Outside the Box: My Journey in Search of the Beautiful Game by Brad Friedel
8-)

User avatar
mrblackbat
Promising manager
Posts: 14222
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:16 am

Rover the Top wrote:
daib0 wrote: My questions are:

Should women be paid the same for the 'same job'? - for example, in a symphony orchestra it would be inconceivable to have a difference
Why would it be inconceivable to have a difference in a symphony orchestra? Surely the ability and reputation of the musician would have some influence over how much it cost to hire them? And I'd say it's very likely that players of the same instrument in different orchestras are paid differing amounts for a variety of reasons.
It's more than likely that instrumentalists of the same instrument in an orchestra receive different pay scales, it's actually fact, at least in the UK. A non principal front row first violinist receives more than a non principal second row first violinist. They play exactly the same part and have equal importance musically in the orchestra, but the front row seat will go to a,more experienced player, or to a principal violinist in the making. In fact, each specific seat is auditioned for directly with a specific pay (and associated pay rise) associated to it, so most members of the orchestra wilkl be paid differently dependent on duration of service in the orchestra and the prestige of the seat.

daib0
Valued squad member
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Spain (Pamplona) - England (Reading - back when possible)
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by daib0 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:10 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Rover the Top wrote:
daib0 wrote: My questions are:

Should women be paid the same for the 'same job'? - for example, in a symphony orchestra it would be inconceivable to have a difference
Why would it be inconceivable to have a difference in a symphony orchestra? Surely the ability and reputation of the musician would have some influence over how much it cost to hire them? And I'd say it's very likely that players of the same instrument in different orchestras are paid differing amounts for a variety of reasons.
It's more than likely that instrumentalists of the same instrument in an orchestra receive different pay scales, it's actually fact, at least in the UK. A non principal front row first violinist receives more than a non principal second row first violinist. They play exactly the same part and have equal importance musically in the orchestra, but the front row seat will go to a,more experienced player, or to a principal violinist in the making. In fact, each specific seat is auditioned for directly with a specific pay (and associated pay rise) associated to it, so most members of the orchestra wilkl be paid differently dependent on duration of service in the orchestra and the prestige of the seat.
that's true but what I meant is that it's not differentiated by sex gender; there are many orchestras where the principal violinist (English = leader, America = Concert Master) is a woman ...

User avatar
mrblackbat
Promising manager
Posts: 14222
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:47 am

How many world renowned conductors are female?

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 26758
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:11 am

daib0 wrote: that's true but what I meant is that it's not differentiated by sex gender; there are many orchestras where the principal violinist (English = leader, America = Concert Master) is a woman ...
The point is, you can't tell if there's also discrimination by gender just by looking at pay because the "same job" in an orchestra typically pays different rates for other reasons anyway. Is there any evidence to suggest, for example, Hope Solo would be paid less than a male player if she could play in goal for the men's team?

daib0
Valued squad member
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Spain (Pamplona) - England (Reading - back when possible)
Contact:

Re: Five top US women footballers sue for better pay

Post by daib0 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:17 am

Reading this again, perhaps some are slightly missing the point.

You don't need to put Serena Williams against Novak Djokovic to determine whether the men are faster, more powerful etc. obviously it is a physiological fact. That doesn't, however, in any way denigrate what the women are doing. They are at the physical pinnacle of what can be achieved given their biological limitations as do the men for all their biological limitations.

Would you abandon the real Olympics for a robot version just because they can throw further, run faster etc? Or a robot instead of Lang Lang or Yehudi Menuhin because it can play faster/louder etc?

Post Reply