General Election

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Gibbon
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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:37 pm

Because they’re two of the most famous alledgedly corrupt financiers of the period?

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:42 pm

The real question should be:- why say you chose two Jewish figures, then fail to depict them with any accuracy whatsoever, just wheeling out some caricatures instead, whilst converting a couple of the others into something similar.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:54 pm

Interesting. And you think he based his likenesses on reference of those men when they were healthy and comparatively young (particularly the photos you provided of Rockefella, Warburg and Morgan)when his cited goal was to show decrepitude?

When I have a bit more time I’ll try and find some more suitable reference than the first results google throws up, but even so, I can see some likenesses there. Even if the artist is a bit shit. :lol:

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:56 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:54 pm
Interesting. And you think he based his likenesses on reference of those men when they were healthy and comparatively young (particularly the photos you provided of Rothschild, Warburg and Morgan)when his cited goal was to show decrepitude?

When I have a bit more time I’ll try and find some more suitable reference than the first results google throws up, but even so, I can see some likenesses there. Even if the artist is a bit shit. :lol:
Ok, pull up some older photos of them. I guarantee there's still none of them look like the dude he painted on the left. :doh:

As I say, scrabbling around....

Another one of JP Morgan:-

Image

Rockefeller:-

Image

Jacob Rothschild (different from Jakob Meyer, of course, who knows which one he wanted to paint.....)

Image

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Re: General Election

Post by mcteeth » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:38 pm

Meanwhile the Tories circulate dog whistle racism in leaflets along with a sexist remark in the House of Commons.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:34 pm

Par for the course, innit.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:45 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:56 pm

Ok, pull up some older photos of them. I guarantee there's still none of them look like the dude he painted on the left. :doh:

As I say, scrabbling around....
Looks like it could be a terrible attempt at Carnegie to me.

Like I said, crap artist.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:29 pm

Or you're clearly clutching at straws.... :hyper:

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:42 pm

Well to be fair, it’s such a bad painting, I’m not sure ANYONE looks like that.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:56 am

Bit it DOES look like a caracature of a Jewish rabbi (sans hat)..... :yeahright: :whistle:

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:33 am

So just so I've got this straight - what people think resembles anti-semitic Nazi propaganda is down to their own issues because the artist says some of them are not supposed to be Jewish, and he's just so bad at art he's accidentally drawn anti-semitic caricatures rather than the people he meant to? Gibbon, is there even a seed of doubt inside you that the artist drew what he did purposely and is lying to protect himself?

What about the council candidate who posted that the Holocaust was a hoax? Is that just everyone else showing their issues for being shocked and offended by that?

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Re: General Election

Post by mcteeth » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:05 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/au ... ly-podcast

I found that a good listen on the matter.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:35 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:33 am
So just so I've got this straight - what people think resembles anti-semitic Nazi propaganda is down to their own issues because the artist says some of them are not supposed to be Jewish, and he's just so bad at art he's accidentally drawn anti-semitic caricatures rather than the people he meant to? Gibbon, is there even a seed of doubt inside you that the artist drew what he did purposely and is lying to protect himself?
1. I don't see them as definitely anti-semitic caricatures. Anti-semitic caricatures I've seen are much more obvious in their iconography, whereas the most you can say about these is they have big noses, check...and that's it. You may as well criticise Gilbert Shelton, Gerald Scarfe or Quentin Blake ffs.

2. The guy isn't that great at likenesses. The world is littered with poor caricature artists and this guy is one of them. The initial criticisms he faced from members of the Jewish community were due to his depiction of Rothschild and Warburg, so he clearly drew those guys in there...even though we can all agree that none of the figures really resemble those men. I have no reason to suspect that the other figures are anything more than poor likenesses of who he says they are.

3. Of course there's a seed of doubt, there's always room for doubt. Especially when the artist considers David Icke's blog as a great place to put a rebuttal. However, the artist has repeatedly denied anti-semitism, and doubt cuts both ways. If you look at it as if it was intended as an anti-semitic piece then that works. Equally if you look at it as a condemnation of greedy old corrupt financiers, the symbolism works equally well.

Plus I found this...


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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:50 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:35 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:33 am
So just so I've got this straight - what people think resembles anti-semitic Nazi propaganda is down to their own issues because the artist says some of them are not supposed to be Jewish, and he's just so bad at art he's accidentally drawn anti-semitic caricatures rather than the people he meant to? Gibbon, is there even a seed of doubt inside you that the artist drew what he did purposely and is lying to protect himself?
1. I don't see them as definitely anti-semitic caricatures. Anti-semitic caricatures I've seen are much more obvious in their iconography, whereas the most you can say about these is they have big noses, check...and that's it. You may as well criticise Gilbert Shelton, Gerald Scarfe or Quentin Blake ffs.

2. The guy isn't that great at likenesses. The world is littered with poor caricature artists and this guy is one of them. The initial criticisms he faced from members of the Jewish community were due to his depiction of Rothschild and Warburg, so he clearly drew those guys in there...even though we can all agree that none of the figures really resemble those men. I have no reason to suspect that the other figures are anything more than poor likenesses of who he says they are.

3. Of course there's a seed of doubt, there's always room for doubt. Especially when the artist considers David Icke's blog as a great place to put a rebuttal. However, the artist has repeatedly denied anti-semitism, and doubt cuts both ways. If you look at it as if it was intended as an anti-semitic piece then that works. Equally if you look at it as a condemnation of greedy old corrupt financiers, the symbolism works equally well.

Plus I found this...

You think me pointing out the noses is the only thing that makes them a Jewish caricature? Jeez. Definitely scrabbling around, Gibbon....

None of them look anything remotely like the people you used as defence to say they aren't caricatures....

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:28 pm

There's certainly a reasonable doubt that Corbyn commented without really looking at the mural, the only issue with him is that his blunders follow a pattern. And it seems more likely it's just a blind spot for him rather than intentional. I think there's also a doubt that the artist deliberately painted an anti-semitic message, it is possible he didn't really think it through. But what he says has little value beyond pleading ignorance. There's no doubt that it echoes anti-semitic propaganda in style, and in message. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... byn-labour

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