General Election

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theadore
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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:29 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:25 am
So we should just ditch the idea of nations and governments and let the corporations be in charge. They are, anyway.

Wow... just remembered Syndicate.
That was such a good game.

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Rover the Top
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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:18 am

theadore wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:45 am

Flint seems like an odd choice... being brutally honest I don't remember much about her positions on anything, she seemed like a fairly typical blairite, admittedly one who spoke well when I saw her on TV etc.

I know we disagree on this (and that's ok... ;), the 'other team' comment was fairly tongue in cheek)... but I really don't think that more corporate first, centrist masquerading as left wing Labour would do us any good at the moment. There was a report in the last couple of days about the widening wealth gap... headlines like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos have more wealth than 40/50% of americans... the top 400 as much as the combined population of canada and mexico (in americans... it was a weird metric).... Apple have more cash reserves than most countries... including us. I think the myth that if we just play nice to big business and give them everything they ask for the money will eventually find its way to us is being exposed.... and that perhaps what we need is a socialist version of the 80s to put the brakes on... even if Corbyn's utopian services spend proves ultimately unsustainable.
Flint strikes me as intelligent, considered and capable of compromising. She can also articulate her views. All of which put her miles ahead of the two current main party leaders. I struggle to understand why "Blairite" has become a derogatory term, he had it right in appealing to both sides of the political spectrum. Instead, the Left purport to be about looking after ordinary people, yet crave 100 year old ideals that have proved to cause misery for ordinary people when put into practice.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:09 am

Interesting interview with Peston in the Guardian:

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... not-a-blip

Aside from the universal wage, i think the last paragraph is the most telling, and applies to many people I know as well:
My whole self-image was rather challenged by the realisation that the only people I mixed with were broadly, sort of, metrosexual and liberal, for whom admitting you were going to vote for Brexit was the equivalent of farting in public. I just thought, ‘Christ that’s terrible, terrible’.

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theadore
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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:46 am

Aye... Good read that... I'd pinned it for later but chances are if not have got there.

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mrblackbat
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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:19 am

The sentiment of being in a middle class liberal bubble is the key. I doubt many in that bubble acknowledge it, there's too much self reinforcement from social media and just creates a sense of arrogance really: look at those stupid people that voted Brexit.

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Ethiaa
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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:59 am

None of which alters the fact it IS stupid :yeahright:

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:25 am

Ethiaa wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:59 am
None of which alters the fact it IS stupid :yeahright:
Removing yourself from direct economic ties with Greece and Portugal isn't stupid though. Nor is removing yourself from the beaurocracy that the EU peddles; though you could argue a better solution to that problem is significant reform rather than just turning your back on it.

It could be stupid to leave the EU. It could turn out to be a brilliant decision. At the time of joining the EEC it was probably a stupid decision to do so and sacrifice the commonwealth at the same time. Hindsight suggests we did alright out of it by turning London into the finance centre of the EU. But who knows what would have happened if we had been more closely tied to India's emergence as a future economic powerhouse.

Personally, I dislike borders and nations so I would prefer to see things going the other way and have states simply merge together but that's more ideological and emotionally driven than logically driven.

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Ethiaa
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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:30 am

Yeah, like I said. Stupid. Stupid people with their stupid votes.

(and I think you are wrong about Greece & Port - I'm surprised you don't see the benefit of contributing to the development of other economies in the region. But that's the whole thing innit - me, not us)

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:45 am

Its the charming, Dickensian notion that we will somehow get our Empire back by leaving the EU that amuses and saddens me in equal measure.

We just lost our place on the UN’s ICJ (international court of justice) for the first time since its inception in 1946, to India no less and it wasn’t a friendly competition either. These former commonwealths, especially the ones we pillaged and looted to make that Great British “Empire” will be in no rush to come to our aid when we’re cast out and desperate for friends and trading partners.

We’ll see just how “Great” Britain will be on it’s own.

Interesting that today the Electoral Commission has admitted there is “reasonable suspicion” that VoteLeave have committed a criminal act over their funding/spending.

It’s why I feel stronger than ever that there should be another referendum with all the facts on the table (the fact the pound has crashed, the lack of additional funding for the NHS, likely hard brexit) and see just how different the vote will be.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:28 pm

Ethiaa wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:30 am
Yeah, like I said. Stupid. Stupid people with their stupid votes.

(and I think you are wrong about Greece & Port - I'm surprised you don't see the benefit of contributing to the development of other economies in the region. But that's the whole thing innit - me, not us)
You need to read the whole post, Eth.

I don't have any issue contributing to other economies. However, allowing a mismanaged and uncontrollable economy to irresponsibly destroy your own.is clearly stupid. The contribution has to go both ways; with Portugal and Greece it didn't, they just drained.

As for the whole thing being me not us, Ibseem to remember the first point you brought up following the referendum being the likely reduction in R&D grants..... :yeahright: ;)
Last edited by mrblackbat on Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:29 pm

Jim wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:45 am
Its the charming, Dickensian notion that we will somehow get our Empire back by leaving the EU that amuses and saddens me in equal measure.

We just lost our place on the UN’s ICJ (international court of justice) for the first time since its inception in 1946, to India no less and it wasn’t a friendly competition either. These former commonwealths, especially the ones we pillaged and looted to make that Great British “Empire” will be in no rush to come to our aid when we’re cast out and desperate for friends and trading partners.

We’ll see just how “Great” Britain will be on it’s own.

Interesting that today the Electoral Commission has admitted there is “reasonable suspicion” that VoteLeave have committed a criminal act over their funding/spending.

It’s why I feel stronger than ever that there should be another referendum with all the facts on the table (the fact the pound has crashed, the lack of additional funding for the NHS, likely hard brexit) and see just how different the vote will be.
No offence Jim, but I don't think you have a clue about economics.

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:57 pm

No offense taken but I disagree, I’m no economist but I do know enough. I know that cutting yourself off from tariff free trade across a huge trading bloc like the EU to “go it solo” is economic suicide.

I also believe we lack the international clout to get deals on our terms, as the horrendously ill prepared brexit negotiations are showing.

I also know enough to say our economy is service driven, namely the big banks/finance sector and a number of these have already stated they would look to move to the EU if access to the single market is lost with predictions already that the economy is going to contract heavily by 2022 I believe (there was an article on it the other day). Thatcherism killed off the manufacturing industries that the likes of Germany, China, India etc boast of.

I know enough to be scared stiff of the future post Brexit, especially if trade deals like TTIP where corporations have more say than sovereign courts, where standards are lowered so much that cheap, American, chlorine washed meat could be stocking shelves in my local supermarket are the only prospect.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:07 pm

It's not economic suicide when you bankroll that trading bloc. It hurts the EU more than the UK to have no trade agreement in place. That's why they have the hard rhetoric, they're running scared.

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:21 pm

It’s debatable as to who it hurts most, I’d argue we’d both be in a worse situation as so much of our trade goes to each other.

This is precisely why the far-right Tories pushing a hard or no deal Brexit are so terrifying.

The point is though, for access to the single market we’d still need to accept ECJ and other rules. We simply can’t cherry pick what we want and don’t want to take and for that we give up any say on the future direction of the EU and those rules and regulations. Just makes no sense.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:22 pm

There aren't any "far right tories". That's just moderate left hysteria.

No trade agreement hurts both sides, yes, but so does no trade agreement with many other nations. Swings and roundabouts. The reason we have so much trade with the EU is cause we have a trade agreement in place. If that changes, the trade will switch elsewhere.

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