General Election

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Joe
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Re: General Election

Post by Joe » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:15 am

theadore wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:37 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... arket-vote

So... I remain ( ;) ) staunchly pro-eu... But this is starting to get on my tits now. I would love for anyone to present a decent argument that will convince leave supporters that the haven't been royally shafted by not leaving the eu... But there isn't one. In the meantime it is unhelpful to paint everyone not selling the fantasy as pro-brexit.
Putting the Brexit issue to one side for a moment.....is this not pretty hypocritical of Mr Corbyn? Hasn't he rebelled 600+ times as a Labour MP, and praised the importance of MP's representing the will of their constituents?

I know these MPs were in the shadow cabinet, so you could argue it was slightly different to the rebellious backbench MP Corbyn was...... but that brings up another issue..... should he really be sacking members of the shadow cabinet? He doesn't want to find himself in a position where he can hardly fill it again.....

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Joe
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Re: General Election

Post by Joe » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:25 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:51 pm
mcteeth wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:10 pm
mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:51 am
Though I do take umbrance about it being "slung down the drain". It's going to go towards public services (in Northern Ireland) which is exactly what you want?
You know as well as I do that the Barnett Formula already allocates money across the home nations, this is in addition to that and is is quite simply a bung. It's also more than likely to result in NI getting more money across this government if it doesn't end in tears and the other home nations putting their hand out for more.
Its still not slinging it down the drain. Its providing much needed funding to a relatively under funded area of our country.

Perhaps that's the real issue; everyone wants more spent on services, but only when it benefits them.

Altruism, eh....
You can't spin this as anything other than a bung Blackbat...... come on? :)

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theadore
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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:27 am

Joe wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:15 am
theadore wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:37 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... arket-vote

So... I remain ( ;) ) staunchly pro-eu... But this is starting to get on my tits now. I would love for anyone to present a decent argument that will convince leave supporters that the haven't been royally shafted by not leaving the eu... But there isn't one. In the meantime it is unhelpful to paint everyone not selling the fantasy as pro-brexit.
Putting the Brexit issue to one side for a moment.....is this not pretty hypocritical of Mr Corbyn? Hasn't he rebelled 600+ times as a Labour MP, and praised the importance of MP's representing the will of their constituents?

I know these MPs were in the shadow cabinet, so you could argue it was slightly different to the rebellious backbench MP Corbyn was...... but that brings up another issue..... should he really be sacking members of the shadow cabinet? He doesn't want to find himself in a position where he can hardly fill it again.....
The main difference with Corbyn being that they didn't have anything to take off him.... even if they contested his seat through some sort of deselection process... all they were likely to gain was 1 less seat.

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theadore
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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:32 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:00 pm
theadore wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:37 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... arket-vote

So... I remain ( ;) ) staunchly pro-eu... But this is starting to qget on my tits now. I would love for anyone to present a decent argument that will convince leave supporters that the haven't been royally shafted by not leaving the eu... But there isn't one. In the meantime it is unhelpful to paint everyone not selling the fantasy as pro-brexit.
The problem with the counter argument to either is that everything is unknown. Will we be better in or out? Who knows. Simply making a decision either way immediately changes the outcome anyway. Its like Schrodinger's Brexit.
Possibly.. but I'm really just talking about the idea that you can argue for staying in the single market (whether its better or not) - without any credible idea of how to do it. Lib Dems and Labour rebels are well within their rights to use it as a stick to beat Labour with... (although why they're more interested in that than mentioning the Tories reinvention as a pro-brexit party...) but its not a plausible position. Far from the technical aspects of Article 50 being triggered already... the only conceivable avenue of remaining in the single market is through keeping free movement and/or a massive financial outlay. If they have a way to achieve this without either of these, or a way of convincing 18 million voters that they haven't been duped then I'm all ears.

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Rover the Top
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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:55 pm

You mean to say that you don't think patronising people and branding them as racist is working? :D It seems politics from all sides at the moment is about saying what they think will impress people and hoping enough are too stupid not to spot the problems.

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mrblackbat
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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:58 am

Joe wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:25 am
mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:51 pm
mcteeth wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:10 pm
mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:51 am
Though I do take umbrance about it being "slung down the drain". It's going to go towards public services (in Northern Ireland) which is exactly what you want?
You know as well as I do that the Barnett Formula already allocates money across the home nations, this is in addition to that and is is quite simply a bung. It's also more than likely to result in NI getting more money across this government if it doesn't end in tears and the other home nations putting their hand out for more.
Its still not slinging it down the drain. Its providing much needed funding to a relatively under funded area of our country.

Perhaps that's the real issue; everyone wants more spent on services, but only when it benefits them.

Altruism, eh....
You can't spin this as anything other than a bung Blackbat...... come on? :)
But so is announcing that you'll abolish student fees to win the student vote, so is promising pay rises to public sector and so on. Its politics, its all bungs.

The thing I find hypocritical is that people want an increase in public spending, which is exactly what this bung is, yet at the same time they get uppity because it doesn't directly affect them.

:shrug:

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:25 am

There's a huge difference between making a financial policy promise to voters to gain their votes, and making a financial policy promise to other MP's to gain their votes.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:00 pm

If you think so.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:32 pm

It's all hypocrisy. I'm sure the noises would be different if it was, say, Corbyn offering the SNP a deal to form a government. The real complaint is as Theo said somewhere above, the DUP would typically side with the Tories anyway. The rest just seems to be people objecting to democracy again because it hasn't given the outcome they wanted.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:25 pm


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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:08 pm

I almost feel sorry for them, but then I remember they are Tories and well, they can go to hell.

Could it get any worse? The cough, the P45, the letters slowly falling off the wall behind her, Bozo having to be told to get up and applaud... just a comedy sketch of hilarity.

If it wasn’t for them putting thousands upon thousands of disabled, sick and unemployed people through hell, poverty and misery over the last ten years based on nothing more than a political choice, I’d laugh at them.

That said I am enjoying seeing the enemy unravel before my eyes.

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:17 pm

I also want to pose the question, has there been a more polar opposite conference season in recent years? The Labour one was breaking attendance records by members and delegates, had a great vibe throughout and a positive message from each of the main speakers, heavy in policy and ideas for the coming years. Giving plenty of discussion and inclusion from the various wings of the party.

The Tory one by contrast was dismal, poorly attended and virtually all the speakers did little more than berate, in increasingly frothing and menacing tone, Corbyn and the Labour party. Light on policy, heavy on tired rhetoric and doomsaying. As for Bozo he should do the honourable thing and resign, he’s an absolute disgrace.

Jeremy Hunt even tried to claim the Tories created the NHS. Does anyone need any further proof that they live in cloud cuckoo land? Just laughable.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:39 am

Jim wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:08 pm

If it wasn’t for them putting thousands upon thousands of disabled, sick and unemployed people through hell, poverty and misery over the last ten years based on nothing more than a political choice, I’d laugh at them.

That said I am enjoying seeing the enemy unravel before my eyes.
A political choice? You mean trying to balance the books post a labour government who continued to spend way beyond its means, signing up for PFI deals that will continue to cripple us for decades?

Even the new head of the CQC is firmly pointing the finger at the early 2000s as the root cause of NHS problems.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:46 am

There was plenty of feedback on the radio from people who'd actually heard the speech who thought it put May in a more positive light. But then you're only likely to listen to these things if you're on their side in the first place.

On the red side there's the same cultish nonsense with some anti-semitism and threats of violence thrown in for good measure. They're pushing proven disastrous policy at a new generation that doesn't know better and patting themselves on the back for not getting thrashed quite as badly as had been expected at one point.

On the blue side, there's the usual infighting and missing open goals with some insensitive one-liners to make headlines for the wrong reasons. Instead of being strong and decisive, they're backtracking on things that should have been obvious in the first place.

It's all a bit depressing.

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:04 am

I've voting with the Catalans :hyper:

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