General Election

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Jim
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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:19 am

A blithering buffoon who should have been out of a job two incidents ago, yet he’s still foreign secretary.

Not forgetting a young mum is still in prison in Iran over something he said, that was completely made up. She should have been home in Britain with her family months ago. That story got hushed up pretty quick.

Now the latest one has him on camera yet official foreign office statements, tweets etc are being deleted and edited to try and save face.

This government is an absolute joke.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:06 am

Jim wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:19 am

Not forgetting a young mum is still in prison in Iran over something he said, that was completely made up. She should have been home in Britain with her family months ago. That story got hushed up pretty quick.
Well no, no, definitely, and it's still going on. Even a regime as twisted as the Iranians would struggle to jail someone over something someone else said 18 months later. :yeahright: She seems likely to have been jailed because she had worked for a BBC charity that provided training courses to Iranian journalists. It's a tenuous link, the Iranians have trumped up her involvement to make her a political pawn, but Johnson didn't make it up. :roll: And yes she should be home, locking someone up for teaching journalism is abhorrent, irrelevant of whether the charge is true or not. Any anger should be directed at Iran, but some choose to attack Johnson instead for a comment being twisted out of context. :shrug: It's not been 'hushed up', if you're actually interested in the case you'll find stories on it from this week.

Have you actually read the transcript of what Johnson said?
Parliament transcript wrote: Ann Clwyd: We raised both here and in St Petersburg the two dual nationals—at least two—being held by the Iranians, of whom I think you are well aware. In both cases, I believe it has been difficult for you to visit them. Is there any access for consular officials to either of the two?

Boris Johnson: I believe there has been some access in some of the consular cases we have in Iran, but these are very difficult cases. My colleague Minister Burt saw Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s husband yesterday to reassure him of our efforts to try to free Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. We continue to make representations both on her behalf and on behalf of Mr Foroughi, and indeed others. As the Committee will appreciate, it is very difficult, because the Iranians do not recognise dual citizenship. They think of them just as Iranians, and it is very hard.

If I may say so—to get back to the point that the Chairman rightly made about the Iranian state—one of the disadvantages of escalating these difficult consular cases and having a very loud public campaign in this country is that that simply strengthens the hand of those who are using these cases for their own internal ends in Iran. That is why sometimes the advice I have had over the months has been that no matter how frustrating and miserable it is, and clearly these cases are very sad, the best approach is a diplomatic one.

Q71 Ann Clwyd: Would you consider calling for their release on humanitarian grounds?

Boris Johnson: Certainly, in both cases, there are obvious humanitarian grounds for their release. I would not dispute that for a minute.

Q72 Ann Clwyd: When I pressed the Iranian delegation in St Petersburg, one of the members of the delegation said to me, “If you come to Tehran, you can visit Mrs Ratcliffe in jail.”

Boris Johnson: Who—me or you?

Q73 Ann Clwyd: Me. Would you like to?

Boris Johnson: Of course. Obviously, we will have to be very careful about this, because we want them to be released. I have raised this case many times now with Javad Zarif, my Iranian counterpart. When we look at what Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was doing, she was simply teaching people journalism, as I understand it, at the very limit. I hope that a way forward can be found. I must say, I find it deeply depressing; I think it is totally contrary to the interests of the Iranian people for this to continue.

Q74 Ann Clwyd: But can I just ask whether you think we are playing it in the right way? The Americans always seem to get their people out.

Boris Johnson: They do sometimes, Mrs Clwyd, but then what happens is that the Iranians lift some more and hold them for the same purposes.

Q75 Chris Bryant: So what you are saying is that the Iranians are hostage-taking?

Boris Johnson: I am not going to go as far as to say that, but what is certainly the case is that American efforts to do deals have then been followed by further very difficult consular cases in which duals have been detained.

Q76 Ms Ghani: I want to follow on from Mrs Clwyd’s questioning. One of the frustrations we have, and no doubt Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s family do too, is that there is no full understanding of how long her sentence is. There was some talk that there was an extra 16 years added on top. When the Committee met the delegation from Iran recently, they disputed that and then challenged us not to ask them these questions again. Do you have any idea how long she has been sentenced for, at the very least?

Boris Johnson: It is worse than that. It is not only that we have no idea about how long her sentence really is—the point about the extra 16 years has not been confirmed, so we are not certain of that—but neither Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe nor her family has been informed of what crime she is supposed to have committed. That I find extraordinary and incredible.
If you can find something in there that warrants locking a woman up for, please point it out.

The strange thing is, the one recent thing he said that was completely out-of-line, calling Thornberry "Lady Nugee", did get brushed off very quickly. Probably because he apologised straight away and nobody bothered to make an absurd defence of him... :yeahright:

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:20 am

She was in Iran ON HOLIDAY not teaching anyone journalism, which is precisely why she’s now still in prison in Iran and not home with her family.

Iran itself has quoted Boris’ actual words “teaching journalism” in court against her.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:03 am

Jim wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:20 am
She was in Iran ON HOLIDAY not teaching anyone journalism, which is precisely why she’s now still in prison in Iran and not home with her family.

Iran itself has quoted Boris’ actual words “teaching journalism” in court against her.
*Sigh*. Read up on the facts, they're easy enough to find. She was arrested whilst on holiday, that doesn't mean she was arrested for what she was doing whilst on holiday. :roll: She had worked for the BBC charity that provided journalism courses that several Iranians were jailed for taking in 2014. The link is tenuous and certainly not justification for jailing someone. But Iran have made something out of it and arrested her whilst she was in their country.

And so what if the Iranian judge quoted Johnson? Do you think "teaching journalism" is a reason to lock someone up? I've provided the full transcript, please point out the bit you think is incriminating. Any condemnation for the injustice of it all should be aimed squarely at the Iranian regime, but you don't seem willing to acknowledge that. Why?

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Re: General Election

Post by mcteeth » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:12 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:06 am
The strange thing is, the one recent thing he said that was completely out-of-line, calling Thornberry "Lady Nugee", did get brushed off very quickly. Probably because he apologised straight away and nobody bothered to make an absurd defence of him... :yeahright:
That's not strictly true, he apologised because he was effectively told too at the time and even his apology is essentially saying sorry if you're offended by me calling you Lady Nugee I didn't mean any offense as I don't think it's offensive.

No one is making an absurd defence of him because he's a complete fucking prat and everyone already knows it.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:25 pm

mcteeth wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:12 pm

No one is making an absurd defence of him because he's a complete fucking prat and everyone already knows it.
Exactly the point. Corbyn's a complete fucking prat too but appears to have thousands who'd argue black is white to avoid admitting it... ;)

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Re: General Election

Post by mcteeth » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:46 pm

:lol:

Corbyn can be a prat but he's nowhere near Johnson's level of fuckwit.

You still can't draw parallels between something that was definitely wrong, Johnson being sexist, and something that has been perceived as everything from Corbyn is antisemitic, it's a coincidence, he's just been naive, oh it's a witch hunt.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:43 pm

mcteeth wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:46 pm
:lol:

Corbyn can be a prat but he's nowhere near Johnson's level of fuckwit.

You still can't draw parallels between something that was definitely wrong, Johnson being sexist, and something that has been perceived as everything from Corbyn is antisemitic, it's a coincidence, he's just been naive, oh it's a witch hunt.
The parallels are stark: Johnson was definitely wrong with the "Lady Nugee" comment, Corbyn was definitely wrong with the mural comment. You can doubt intent but both were wrong. :shrug: And like I say, the difference is, with the latter his supporters try to deflect and brush it all under the carpet rather than just admit the guy got it wrong. They're not fooling anyone and would achieve more if they accepted the criticisms than automatically dismissed everything as "smears".

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:06 am

Jim wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:20 am
She was in Iran ON HOLIDAY not teaching anyone journalism, which is precisely why she’s now still in prison in Iran and not home with her family.

Iran itself has quoted Boris’ actual words “teaching journalism” in court against her.
Sometimes, Jim, you can be a right wally.

They weren't accusing her of teaching whilst she was on holiday. They arrested her whilst she was on holiday. For allegedly previously teaching journalism. Surely not that difficult to understand? Much in the same way that if Julian Assange decided to go on holiday to America, he'd get arrested: not for going on holiday there, but for previously having leaked government secrets

She's in prison because of an extreme Iranian regime who have trumped up some charges against her, not because BoJo, as much as a buffoon he is, said something; whoch when you actually read the full transcript in context is actually all sensible comments. After all she was already in prison prior to Johnson's comments...... :yeahright:

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue May 22, 2018 2:21 pm

Just when I thought the Labour party couldn't get more ridiculous...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... -chair-ian

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Tue May 22, 2018 7:15 pm

He’s a very right wing Labour rep with a history of obscene tweets and even anti-democratic actions, like being photographed hand-picking questions that were supposed to be random during the Labour hustlings for the vacant seat in his constituency. To what end who knows but there is a lot of discontent in his CLP about dodgy practices and a “jobs for the boys” mentality.

I don’t see what the fuss is, bad seeds like him should be suspended and investigated.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Tue May 22, 2018 9:11 pm

How come it took so long though, Jim? If it was a different party, you'd be outraged.... ;)

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Tue May 22, 2018 9:21 pm

It’s a very good point B.B. it seems that it takes a perceived slight for people to trawl back through years of social media to find dirt. They did the same to Corbyn, the same to Thornberry.

The Labour right have used it to their advantage in the mainstream media for months/years now. Going as far as getting a man who has fought his entire life for equality and an end to racism, labelled as a racist. Now finally getting some karmic justice.

Labour factional infighting is getting beyond a joke. I’m very much a left of centre individual, a socialist who believes strongly in the Scandinavian models of government that have made those countries to be some of the happiest in the world. Jeremy’s policies are tame compared to those on the continent yet he/we are labelled Trots and Commies, lefty loonies. It grinds you down and eats at your resolve.

The Tories are in complete disarray, Grenfell, Windrush, the ongoing debacle that is Brexit. Factional infighting in the cabinet that puts the Labour troubles to shame. Yet because we, in Labour, cannot unite behind a twice democratically elected leader. We are letting them almost completely off the hook. Save MPs like David Lammy who has been truly inspirational over the last months.

My immediate concerns are three things I’ve read over the last few days. The first one is giving fracking companies free reign, with no planning permission requires now to drill. I strongly believe fracking is an environmental disaster waiting to happen. This generation’s thaliomide. Yet they are pushing ahead with reckless abandon.

The second is the rumour that we are throwing ourselves prostrate infront of the US state department for a trade deal post-Brexit. I read an article last night with sources in the US state department who quote “want to make the UK pay”. Everything from lower food standards to opening up the NHS to private medical firms and Big Pharma are on the table and like TTIP it will be negotiated in secret behind closed doors.

Lastly the blatant undemocratic gerrymandering in the House or Lords, with 10 new Tory peers being announced with only two Labour and one DUP. Despite decades of “balance” between the main parties, that’s been completely broken now. Immediately after repeated attempts to force through troubling Brexit law failed. It’s horrific the lengths the government are going to to force through their huge mistake.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Tue May 22, 2018 9:40 pm

Do you know what's really made Scandanavian policy work so well? Tiny populations.

As for democratically elected; do you really think the Labour party elections are democratic? How much do you pay to be a voting member again? :yeahright:

I ised to have more respect for Corbyn, I actually thought he was a principled man, though I think his principles have been proved to fail when put into practise. As Labour leader, however, he's bent on so many key principals (Trident, the EU etc) that he's lost that respect, whilst also failing to be a good politician.

My biggest problem, though, is the utter partisan nature of Labour supporters. Your use of "We" sums it up. Criticism just can't be accepted. It's not possible Corbyn could make a mistake. To be honest, it all comes across as almost cultish....

And lastly; how on earth do you compare fracking to thalidomide?!? :doh:

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Tue May 22, 2018 10:04 pm

I compare it to thalolimide because of the reported health risks owing to the chemicals used getting into the drinking water/the water table that would effect everyone in an area.

There’s reported cases of drinking water being flammable due to the methane present, earthquakes caused by the processes. There’s not enough long term research done on the risks of fracking to roll it out widely. It’s a greedy, dirty way of meeting a small fraction of the country’s energy need. Money that would be better spend on renewables, like Portugal have for example where they’ve ran he country without any fossil fuels for 3 days straight recently.

Well on the subject of the Labour Party membership, unlike the Tories who get the vast amount of their wealth from donors, many of whom are tax exiles, the Labour Party doesn’t really have that luxury. We are a grassroots movement and with reference to the lack of democracy in the leadership votes, I think you’ll find a staunch Blairite (Ian McNichol) and the NEC was largely responsible for pricing new members out of voting and also banning members for the slightest transgressions. I have friends who faced a ban during this period after years old social media posts were trawled up. We aren’t talking racism or anti-semitism here. We are talking disagreements with MPs etc. Voicing leftist views.

I do get what you’re saying about this “cult of Corbyn” and I do find it pretty ridiculous how untouchable large parts of left feel he is. However speaking as someone on the left. You get so disallusioned with the length some in the media go to to discredit and slander a good man. It does prompt his supporters to close ranks. You do feel their attacks personally.

Where I disagree is where you feel he’s no longer the man of principle he was. I think he very much is that same man and his world view is exactly what we need right now. Someone who views the world not in black and white but in shades of grey. Someone of tact and diplomacy. Not someone who panders to Donald Trumps every whim. Who abstains from voting in the UN on a move to criticise what are essentially war crimes in the West Bank and to push us closer than ever to a new Cold War with Putin’s Russia... playing totally into his hands.

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