General Election

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Rover the Top
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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:33 am

Much is made of a slogan on a bus that you'd have to be stupid to think amounted to an actual commitment. People bought into it of course, but then on the other side people bought into the idea that the EU provides some kind of economic security. Which is equally stupid. We were caught up in a huge crash a decade ago, as was the EU in general. We've just about kept our heads above water since, whilst the rest of the EU slipped into a second recession. The effects of that still ripple through now, yet for some, all of that has been forgotten with "Brexit" the root cause of all that is wrong with the world.

The idea of a free trade bloc has it's advantages, but the EU has been tainted by political influence. It's really a protectionist racket for white European nations. It's telling that the EU negotiators have made money the only thing they've been prepared to discuss. They're not bothered about how individuals are affected, they're not bothered about the impact on businesses and consumers across Europe. Their priority seems to be to get as much cash as possible and make leaving look unattractive to the remaining states. They wouldn't need to do that if it was a surefire mistake to leave.

I've always favoured a more even, global attitude to trade, and I think from a political and economic aspect, 28 different governments cannot work together indefinitely. I know not every reason put forward for leaving was a good one, but I do believe there's advantages in removing the political influence/interference of Brussels and removing the obstacles to trade with the rest of the world. Against an easily debunked myth that the EU is a harmonious, prosperous paradise, it became an easy choice.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:58 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:33 am
Much is made of a slogan on a bus that you'd have to be stupid to think amounted to an actual commitment.
It's more that the Brexit mob put it on there because they knew a section of the electorate would misinterpret it to their favour. It was calculated deception and they should be held to account so it doesn't happen again.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:13 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:58 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:33 am
Much is made of a slogan on a bus that you'd have to be stupid to think amounted to an actual commitment.
It's more that the Brexit mob put it on there because they knew a section of the electorate would misinterpret it to their favour. It was calculated deception and they should be held to account so it doesn't happen again.
Who should be held to account and how? I'll suggest the reason why it got under the skin of Remainers is because by arguing that the number was incorrect, they inadvertently reinforced the idea that there was still some money going to the EU that could be diverted to the NHS instead. Whether it is or not depends on the government of the day. And just because it's believed some people may not have realised that, that doesn't somehow create an obligation to act on it. Rather than whinging about "lies", I think the Remain "mob" needed a counter argument to show that staying in the EU was more desirable than having money to spend domestically. Which they couldn't do...

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:24 pm

Cos they are stupid.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 pm

Stupidity all round! Hurray!

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:46 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:58 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:33 am
Much is made of a slogan on a bus that you'd have to be stupid to think amounted to an actual commitment.
It's more that the Brexit mob put it on there because they knew a section of the electorate would misinterpret it to their favour. It was calculated deception and they should be held to account so it doesn't happen again.
You can argue the same about every undelivered policy put forward by every government, of which there are many.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:54 pm

Yes you can, although this is one of the worst cases I’ve seen with greater repercussions than most. There needs to be better accountability in cases as intentionally misleading as this, it certainly shouldn’t be allowed to remain common practice.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:03 pm

Every case has massive repurcussions. That's because governments have massive effects. :shrug:

Student loans, PFIs, wars on Iraq.....

If you want there to be better accountability, then labour should be required to stand up and say just how much they've cost the country with bad debt from PFI schemes and poor regulation of the financial services industry in the mid 2000s. That's had the biggest effect on the NHS.

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:58 pm

I think you'll find that old people have had the biggest effect on the NHS.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:35 am

Gibbon wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:54 pm
Yes you can, although this is one of the worst cases I’ve seen with greater repercussions than most. There needs to be better accountability in cases as intentionally misleading as this, it certainly shouldn’t be allowed to remain common practice.
It wasn't a government pledge (what they actually lied about was needing an emergency budget, the chancellor resigning to avoid dealing with having his bluff called). It wasn't even any political party's policy. You can quibble over the [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40860657]exact figure[/url], but it's fact that the UK has been paying billions of pounds per year into the EU. What happens to that contribution once we leave is undetermined, and the NHS is a cause championed by many (including yourself). I doubt anyone with the faculties to be swayed by an argument to fund the NHS would somehow not realise that a yes/no vote on the EU was not the same as a general election. The Prime Minister was on the opposite side during the campaign, FFS. And it's obvious that debate over the figure does not invalidate the whole point. I feel Remainers are just being disingenuine on the whole issue, mainly because they can't counter the actual sentiment.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:28 am

Ethiaa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:58 pm
I think you'll find that old people have had the biggest effect on the NHS.
Yep, I'll not disagree with that. We had to pay a trip to A&E during my other half's pregnancy, and literally every person other than us there was over 60. Was like an old people's home.

However, the money that's being spent on payong off the borrowing for PFI deals from the mid 2000s means we have no money to spend on increasing the level of care now. And the proposed solution? Borrow more....

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:39 pm

Ethiaa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:58 pm
I think you'll find that old people have had the biggest effect on the NHS.
I thought it was sick people.

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:39 pm
Ethiaa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:58 pm
I think you'll find that old people have had the biggest effect on the NHS.
I thought it was sick people.
Oddly enough there is a causation between the two

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:01 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:39 pm
Ethiaa wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:58 pm
I think you'll find that old people have had the biggest effect on the NHS.
I thought it was sick people.
Sick people aren't the problem. The NHS does more than just treat sick people currently, which is the problem.

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:03 am

Stopping people getting sick in the first place is a good thing ;)

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