Scottish Independence

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Gibbon
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Gibbon » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:10 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
SheepShagginRover wrote:The SNP don't vote on legislation that doesn't affect Scotland in Westminster.

Non-story.
Though Sturgeon has made it clear that they intend to if certain policies are brought up, such as the NHS and tax. So non story becomes a story.
Surely NHS and tax issues affect Scotland?

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SheepShagginRover
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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by SheepShagginRover » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:05 pm

Gibbon wrote:
mrblackbat wrote:
SheepShagginRover wrote:The SNP don't vote on legislation that doesn't affect Scotland in Westminster.

Non-story.
Though Sturgeon has made it clear that they intend to if certain policies are brought up, such as the NHS and tax. So non story becomes a story.
Surely NHS and tax issues affect Scotland?
Precisely. It's more rabble rousing rhetoric (excellent alliteration) from sections of the right-wing media with a tasty anti-Scotland, anti-socialism slant on it. Also, by making the story about "English votes for English laws" it changes the narrative from a progressive, secessionist Scotland to Ingerlund supposingly being held hostage to the jocks.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:57 pm

Gibbon wrote:
mrblackbat wrote:
SheepShagginRover wrote:The SNP don't vote on legislation that doesn't affect Scotland in Westminster.

Non-story.
Though Sturgeon has made it clear that they intend to if certain policies are brought up, such as the NHS and tax. So non story becomes a story.
Surely NHS and tax issues affect Scotland?
Well, no, certainly not always... health and some taxation (including income tax) are devolved powers.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visit ... 12506.aspx

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by SheepShagginRover » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:10 am

Rover the Top wrote:Well, no, certainly not always... health and some taxation (including income tax) are devolved powers.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visit ... 12506.aspx
The Scottish NHS is administered under health 'boards', it's run in a completely different way to both the English and Welsh NHS systems. Statistically it's no better, but they're fiercely different about how they run in. Never worked in the Scottish NHS, only the English NHS. And, I'd argue that the Scots have a right to vote on how the NHS is funded/run because of the ramifications UK-wide over any changes.

The NHS is subject to a creeping privatisation that from personal experience I can say offers shoddier service, at a negligibly cheaper price. Everything comes down to cost and really hampers treatments available. The NHS continues to change massively and decisions made upon it do not just impact England. Spending powers may be devolved, but that's not the be all and end all of the cultural change that surrounds the National Health Service.

So, yes. It does affect Scotland.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:22 am

SheepShagginRover wrote: Precisely. It's more rabble rousing rhetoric (excellent alliteration) from sections of the right-wing media with a tasty anti-Scotland, anti-socialism slant on it. Also, by making the story about "English votes for English laws" it changes the narrative from a progressive, secessionist Scotland to Ingerlund supposingly being held hostage to the jocks.
:lol: The BBC quoting Sturgeon is "rabble-rousing rhetoric" from the "right-wing media"? She's the one making an issue about potentially not being able to vote on matters that you say she doesn't vote on anyway. The "West Lothian question" has been an obvious problem with the political system that needs fixing, it goes against democracy to not devolve England to the same extent as the other UK countries.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by SheepShagginRover » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:38 am

"EVEL" is bollocks. England is already in the position of power, wealth and resources. Devolved powers were given to the Celtic nations purely because they were underrepresented in politics. It was an evening up of powers.

England doesn't need an assembly: All the influence and money already resides there.

I'd champion regional assemblies though, for the North East, for the North West, the South West and the Midlands. The South East already receives a disproportionate amount. EVEL will just see more money retained in the areas that don't need it.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:34 am

On the contrary, EVEL is about fairness and common sense. The Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are no more important than English citizens. Everyone in the UK should have an equal democratic right. That clearly isn't the case when parts of the country have their own localised laws but also have influence over laws elsewhere that don't affect them. The argument for keeping the system as is is about distorting political power and borders on being racist.

And the headline news this morning demonstrates exactly why a change is needed.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by theadore » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:21 am

A change is needed (although it is hardly a dire need) - but as it stands Scottish MPs have every right (and a moral duty) to vote on every issue in the house of commons, as they have been elected to do on behalf of their constituents.

England should create a new devolved parliament - probably more than one. The powers should be broadly equivalent to the parliaments in scotland, wales and northern ireland and paid for by reducing the size and scope of parochial nimby councils nationally.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:20 am

theadore wrote:A change is needed (although it is hardly a dire need) - but as it stands Scottish MPs have every right (and a moral duty) to vote on every issue in the house of commons, as they have been elected to do on behalf of their constituents.
Hmm, I don't know about that. If you state you're not going to vote in certain circumstances before you're elected, I'd say the moral duty is to maintain that position once you're elected. I agree with you on further devolution, though.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by SheepShagginRover » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:47 pm

theadore wrote:
England should create a new devolved parliament - probably more than one. The powers should be broadly equivalent to the parliaments in scotland, wales and northern ireland and paid for by reducing the size and scope of parochial nimby councils nationally.
Councils are hugely important in running local areas and must be preserved. However, the salaries of top council workers are truly eye watering. English parliament would be costly and unnecessary. England keeps most of the cash in England as it is. An English assembly is just further bureaucracy.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:10 pm

By that notion, having the Welsh and Scottish parliaments is also unnecessary bureaucracy. Everyone in the UK should be governed in the same way. Having special exceptions for certain parts of the country based on historical boundaries that ceased to be relevant hundreds of years ago is nonsensical. So there should either be devolved powers throughout the Kingdom, or there should be central government for all. Regardless of what you think about the bill in question, it's fundamentally wrong that Scottish MPs can prevent the rest of the UK from adopting a law that their own constituents already have.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by SheepShagginRover » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:09 pm

Welsh and Scottish parliaments are not bureaucracy because they even out the balance of power. They came into being as a way of countenancing the fact the aforementioned countries were being shafted. England is not at a disadvantage and therefore doesn't need special representation. The assemblies are akin to affirmative action. England neither needs or warrants one.

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by theadore » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:00 pm

Scotland has roughly the population of Yorkshire and is represented by just about the same number of MPs. In what way are they being 'shafted' any more than people of Yorkshire without having a parliament?

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:16 pm

Gibbon wrote:
mrblackbat wrote:
SheepShagginRover wrote:The SNP don't vote on legislation that doesn't affect Scotland in Westminster.

Non-story.
Though Sturgeon has made it clear that they intend to if certain policies are brought up, such as the NHS and tax. So non story becomes a story.
Surely NHS and tax issues affect Scotland?
NHS and tax within England....

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Re: Scottish Independence

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:17 pm

SheepShagginRover wrote:
Rover the Top wrote:Well, no, certainly not always... health and some taxation (including income tax) are devolved powers.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visit ... 12506.aspx
The Scottish NHS is administered under health 'boards', it's run in a completely different way to both the English and Welsh NHS systems. Statistically it's no better, but they're fiercely different about how they run in. Never worked in the Scottish NHS, only the English NHS. And, I'd argue that the Scots have a right to vote on how the NHS is funded/run because of the ramifications UK-wide over any changes.

The NHS is subject to a creeping privatisation that from personal experience I can say offers shoddier service, at a negligibly cheaper price. Everything comes down to cost and really hampers treatments available. The NHS continues to change massively and decisions made upon it do not just impact England. Spending powers may be devolved, but that's not the be all and end all of the cultural change that surrounds the National Health Service.

So, yes. It does affect Scotland.
Unless it doesn't.

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