seeing as there ain't one...

There must be more to life than football?
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Brexit

Poll ended at Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:23 pm

Remain
3
50%
Leave
3
50%
 
Total votes: 6

Happy(ish)Rover
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seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Happy(ish)Rover » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:23 pm

Brexit or Bremain?

I'm an outty.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by wrinks_89 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:40 pm

Remain! Great debate we have thus far :lol:

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Happy(ish)Rover » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:11 pm

Debates should be over, how long do people need?

Seeing as you want one (no evidence for this, it's all speculation borderline project fear) - why in?

More jobs if we stay in Europe?

If we limit more young europeans coming we won't need as many jobs.

Your turn?

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Dan » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:38 pm

I fully expect us to remain. From what I've seen, heard, and read, there just aren't as many good, plausible arguments or reasons to leave.
It's all guesswork, conjecture and scaremongering.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Ethiaa » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:29 am

Remain, not least because I'll lose my job if we leave along with most of my department at this University. Not that the selfish xenophobic fools who just think the EU is about immigration care.

Lets face it, we're a rich country. Very rich by global standards. We SHOULD be contributing to the EU to help the greater good. IT SHOULD cost us to be a member. It disgusts me that people would use us being better off at the expense of people who need support as a reason to leave. Screw you all (IMHO).

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Gibbon » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:30 am

Remain

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:48 am

Dan wrote:I fully expect us to remain. From what I've seen, heard, and read, there just aren't as many good, plausible arguments or reasons to leave.
It's all guesswork, conjecture and scaremongering.
That's true on both sides. The only argument for remaining seems to be that change is something to be fearful of. And yet the change was already made in joining the EU in the first place without consulting the public. I think it's telling that younger generations who've known no different are expected to want to stay, older generations who voted to stay in the EEC are now expected to want out. I think the best reason to leave was actually brought up by the remain campaign: Europe has never been a stable place. The EU is a collection of arch-enemies trying to get one over on each other under the guise of friendly cooperation. Meanwhile, things keep happening that pushes it closer to breaking point whilst the UK struggles to keep its own union together. The economic arguments are swings and roundabouts, the ordinary voter isn't going to feel better or worse off whatever happens. The reality will be what it is and the alternative won't exist to compare to. Perhaps the question should be would we join the EU now, with member states fighting economic collapse, tensions building over migration and a series of terrorist attacks across the channel? I think we'll be better in the long run if we get out on our own terms, build our own bridges with the rest of the world and control our own future.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by theadore » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:54 am

There probably is a convincing economic argument out there somewhere, but neither side is making it. The fantasy £350 million a day is combated by an equally wishy-washy £10 back for every pound. Ultimately financial stability is the winning factor... best moment of the campaign was when Nigel Farage dismissed a 0.5% drop in GDP only to be told mockingly "well, that has just wiped out all the money you've saved". My biggest fear over what happens next is that in a rush to negotiate trade with the US, China and the commonwealth we will not only get a worse deal, but will barter away some of the best EU protections. This isn't 'project fear', just a simple understanding of bargaining with 500 million less customers. Privatization of public services, slashed taxes, bonfire of safety regulations and environmental protections... all in an effort to cover a gap in the market we've just created.

Immigration is a issue that it's OK to be concerned about, however there are a couple of big unsaid things that the leave side are ignoring... namely that we need net immigration to pay our pensions... and the last thing they actually want it a huge expanded government department counting the numbers of plumbers in the country. When free marketeers stop believing their own arguments I start to worry. The big problems with immigration are surprisingly easy to solve... Caroline Lucas' made a point the other night about ring fencing their tax contributions which I think is a sensible idea. Basically... if 10,000 immigrants tip up in a Boston or wherever, use the money to build schools, houses and doctors in Boston. The small minded will point to this as more preferential treatment for immigrants, probably wasting a lot of time complaining about it at the new school gates.

Ultimately I'm very pro-EU anyway... despite the obvious failings (CAP etc.). Europe is a tiny place and you can travel from one end to the other in a matter of hours. Having done so, I have always found that I have much more in common with people in Greece, Poland, Spain, Slovakia etc. than I do with many people who live on my street. There is far more that we agree on than disagree, and we can work together with these countries on massive things in the future. A combined EU energy policy? Imagine an EU wide super grid where countries feed in the energy they are best placed to produce for the benefit of all... Solar from the south of Europe and Africa, Offshore and Hydro from us and Scandinavia and even Geothermal from Iceland, all into the pot where it is needed. If anyone can think or a more effective way to meet emissions targets I'm all ears. Just as there are decisions that are best made by your local council rather than Westminster, there are issues like pollution, organised crime that can be better approached by a region than individual countries.

I see membership as an opportunity to make this corner of the world better.... ever closer union is unpopular, but our country could help stand up for the rights of pro-choice activists in Ireland and Poland for example... as a member country they don't have to obey but they do listen. As a separate country we have no say on the direction of what is in essence a 500 million super-rich country on our doorstep.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Happy(ish)Rover » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:37 am

I agree the strong should help the weak. 0.7% of our GDP goes on foreign aid? Or is that defence? Well whatever, I miss the England I grew up in, I'm not racist but I am fed up with going into town and hearing some russian dialect way more often than English. (Yes I thought maybe I'm not hearing the english as I'm english so have tested this more than once and I stand by my thoughts and opinion.

I'll be glad when today is over, we need a convincing win either way or this issue will never go away. As a parting thought, I'm amazed that many many scots would have rathered become independent but in europe... strange, very strange. Roll on the 24th.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Dan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:25 am

Happy(ish)Rover wrote: I'm not racist but
If I had a pound for every time I've heard that....

Foreigners want to come here because it's a good country. We have the top Universities. We have the best jobs. We have rights, protections, benefits that just don't exist elsewhere.

So what if someone is speaking Russian in the street? When I visit another country I speak English in their streets, I'm also polite, smile and say hi.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:35 am

Dan wrote: When I visit another country I speak English in their streets, I'm also polite, smile and say hi.
There's a difference between visiting and setting up home somewhere. Each to their own, but if I moved to another country I'd make the effort to learn the language.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:43 am

Ethiaa wrote:Remain, not least because I'll lose my job if we leave along with most of my department at this University. Not that the selfish xenophobic fools who just think the EU is about immigration care.

Lets face it, we're a rich country. Very rich by global standards. We SHOULD be contributing to the EU to help the greater good. IT SHOULD cost us to be a member. It disgusts me that people would use us being better off at the expense of people who need support as a reason to leave. Screw you all (IMHO).
We can be a rich country outside the overly bureaucratic EU and still contribute to help the greater good, shelter refugees and have a positive impact on the world. In fact, one could argue that the country might be better placed to do such a thing outside the EU.

The problem with this referendum is that it's been turned into one about immigration and refugees. The vast majority of refugees aren't from the EU, despite what Farage wants us to think, so by leaving it's going to have a fairly small impact on that.

The focus should be on whether the economy can thrive better in or out of the EU. Given that there is almost no legal precedence for anything that's being promised to occur after the referendum results are through (none of it can be forced to be policy without another general election, which will harm the economy more than either an in or out vote), that it doesn't make much difference. If it was certain that an out vote would lead to a general election, new parties, and discussion about the way forward then it would be possible to make a case for that as a way forward (let's face it, being economically tied to Greece and Portugal just makes everyone's economies weaker). Without it, I can't see any way to vote for anything other than remaining in the EU, despite the wasteful bureaucracy, infighting, wastage and downright uselessness of the establishment.

As I said, the real way to sort things out would be to leave, turn Britain into a major tax haven for commerce, increase the GDP massively by doing so, and ironically increasing the coffers because the overall income of the country is higher and there are more people paying their taxes here instead of Luxumbourg, despite those contributing paying proportionally less tax than they currently do. And then we'd be easily able to afford to spend more on public services, services to aid refugees both in this country and their own.

But hey, people don't like the idea of the rich paying less tax, even if it benefits them as well.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:44 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Dan wrote: When I visit another country I speak English in their streets, I'm also polite, smile and say hi.
There's a difference between visiting and setting up home somewhere. Each to their own, but if I moved to another country I'd make the effort to learn the language.
I'd just speak slowly and loudly, whilst repeatedly saying "eh" when people talked to me.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Dan » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:02 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Dan wrote: When I visit another country I speak English in their streets, I'm also polite, smile and say hi.
There's a difference between visiting and setting up home somewhere. Each to their own, but if I moved to another country I'd make the effort to learn the language.
Me too, and so do most people that come here (based solely on personal experience of people I've met and worked with.)
That doesn't mean they speak English in their home though, or when walking past Happy(ish) Rover in the street.

As blackbat said, this whole referendum has been centered on Immigration, understandably so with everything that's gone on recently. The promises made are empty, there is no precedent for what will happen next. Farage and Boris can go on for as long as they want about shutting borders and taking back the country. Should we leave, will we stop people coming here? Of course not. Are you going to turn away a top Chinese student who wants to pay thousands to come and live over here, study and become a doctor? No. Will the refugees stranded in Europe still be hanging around Calais trying to get into Lorries to get here? Yes. Will we still be losing nearly as many people as we gain each year? (It's ok when people leave here, they're 'ex-pats', not migrants, there's nothing wrong with it that way round). Probably

For what it's worth, I'm not massively for or against remaining in the EU, or massively for or against leaving it, but trying to look at the arguments either way reasonably (which is difficult with the amount of crap that's been produced by both sides) there seems to be a lot more benefits to remaining, and a lot more uncertainty over leaving. We've got the best of both at the moment: membership of the single market, trade links, freedom of movement, whilst maintaining our independence, not having the Euro, and still being able to make our own rules despite what Farage would have you believe.

Walking round parts of Nottingham city centre that have recently been transformed from run-down to modern, all with EU funding.... yes you can argue that we're giving money to the EU and would be able to stop that and spend our own money on similar projects and other things... but there's no guarantee that any freed up funds WOULD be spent on anything useful.

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Re: seeing as there ain't one...

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:42 am

Dan wrote:
Rover the Top wrote:
Dan wrote: When I visit another country I speak English in their streets, I'm also polite, smile and say hi.
There's a difference between visiting and setting up home somewhere. Each to their own, but if I moved to another country I'd make the effort to learn the language.
Me too, and so do most people that come here (based solely on personal experience of people I've met and worked with.)
That doesn't mean they speak English in their home though or to each other.
You've personal experience of meeting and working with "most people that come here"? :o ;)

I wouldn't know what percentage of immigrants try to assimilate to their new country. I think on a national level, the numbers are too small anyway, and as blackbat says, it's not really an issue with the EU. But there are pockets where communities have been changed because of immigration, I think it's understandable if people who've lived there all along don't like aspects of that change.

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