Brexit....or in.

There must be more to life than football?

Which way would you vote

Remain and voted remain the first time
7
70%
Leave and voted leave the first time
2
20%
Remain but voted leave the first time
0
No votes
Leave but voted remain the first time
1
10%
Can't be arsed
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 10

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Rover the Top
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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:04 pm

Wasn't it Starmer who went rogue and went off script with his speech at the Labour conference?

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:56 pm

And the no confidence vote is finally tabled. Bit late really. Amd only against May personally... So actually would affect nothing. :shrug:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46599895

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:17 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:56 pm
And the no confidence vote is finally tabled. Bit late really. Amd only against May personally... So actually would affect nothing. :shrug:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46599895
Yep, just a stunt to hoodwink those who think he's the messiah. So transparent and yet it'll probably work, I expect his supporters to complain about May dismissing it rather than Corbyn not tabling the right motion. Hard to decide who's most pathetic out of the two of them.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:05 am

Indeed. The political system in the UK needs a major overhaul.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Jim » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:14 pm

Agreed, I’m all for proportional representation and perhaps a shakeup of the traditional parties. I’m very much a socialist and for me, the Labour Party is a left-wing, socialist party by nature. The party and the cause, fighting for a fairer society for me is far bigger and more important than any one man, including Corbyn.

I think we’re at a place now, thanks in part to Brexit where you have two main parties split in two. With both halves undermining each other. Will be interesting to see those moderate Tories and Centrist Labour MPs split off to form a new centrist party. Then we’d get a far better idea of whose ideas the population supports.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:14 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:05 am
Indeed. The political system in the UK needs a major overhaul.
I'm not sure what an overhaul would achieve? Politics will still attract corrupt compulsive liars and batshit mental eccentrics. Voters will still generally be polarised by personal circumstances and prejudices. Nobody has really come up with an improvement on capitalist democracies, the alternatives that are touted are still the same old tried and failed systems that ultimately lead to repression and hardship. The fact any such overhaul would need overseeing by someone is problematic in itself, the end result won't suit everyone. We've had a vote to change the status quo and all it's done is increase division.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:41 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:14 pm
mrblackbat wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:05 am
Indeed. The political system in the UK needs a major overhaul.
I'm not sure what an overhaul would achieve? Politics will still attract corrupt compulsive liars and batshit mental eccentrics. Voters will still generally be polarised by personal circumstances and prejudices. Nobody has really come up with an improvement on capitalist democracies, the alternatives that are touted are still the same old tried and failed systems that ultimately lead to repression and hardship. The fact any such overhaul would need overseeing by someone is problematic in itself, the end result won't suit everyone. We've had a vote to change the status quo and all it's done is increase division.
I can't really see an argument for first past the post over proportional representation. I think the polarisation occurs because of the first past the post system, with only two parties able to have any real say. If genuine PR was taken up, neither party would be able to pass motions without having to engage with representatives outside their own party, and so compromises and discussion would have to take place.

The problem currently is that partisan entrenchment is so fierce, that even when the opposition policies are put into force, instead of praising this accusations of stealing agendas is raised. I think this would be less of an issue if discussion was required to pass anything; which in the current environment would be the case. And then should a single party get more than 50% of the vote across the entire country, well then they're genuinely speaking for the majority of people.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:46 pm

Jim wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:14 pm
I’m very much a socialist and for me, the Labour Party is a left-wing, socialist party by nature.
Well that's where you'd be wrong then. It perhaps was 40 years ago.

I don't really think that they're "fighting for a fairer society", either. They certainly seem to be fighting for a society where success is not rewarded, as I see it, which personally I don't think is fair. Perhaps I have a different view of what "fair" is and I'm not swayed by the arguments put forward that to me seem based heavily in the world of envy. At the end of the day, we're all rich compared to the vast majority of the population of the planet. ;)

In addition, I believe their economic policies will make life worse for everyone, rather than better.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:21 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:41 pm

I can't really see an argument for first past the post over proportional representation.
Well I could give several, not necessarily my own opinions, but which are valid arguments. We held a referendum not long ago where the majority chose to stick with FFP - I know there's many who are arguing otherwise at the moment, but I believe if you go to the people to ask for a decision, you stick with it. From a practical point of view, FPP gives a definitive answer, you're not trying to simultaneously represent conflicting popular views and crazy extreme minorities. It also gives localised issues precedence, a community gets a candidate who represents them and gives them a voice in parliament. I disagree that it promotes a polarisation of views, 2 of the last 3 governments have been coalitions. What it does do is allow the most popular viewpoint to form a government and move forward when the vote is scattered amongst multiple options - Requiring a majority is only really practical when you have two choices, unless of course your aim is to create a permanent stalemate.

I voted to change the system when we were asked, I think there would be a benefit in making parties work together. But it's crazy to say it's a clear cut decision and nothing would be lost by changing. And that sums up what does need to change in politics, there needs to be recognition that the opposing view has weight too. But that's unlikely to happen, given the type of people it attracts.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:09 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:46 pm

In addition, I believe their economic policies will make life worse for everyone, rather than better.
When the shadow chancellor regularly criticises the government for both not reducing the deficit quickly enough and not spending enough, you know the country would be fucked if he ever got the chance to make policy. Nationlaisation failed in the 20th Century and will fail again for the same reasons. I suppose if they make the railways so bad numbers halve back to pre-privatisation levels, it will sort out overcrowding on trains... :hyper: And targetting businesses with taxes shows unbelievable naivety - ultimately it will be workers and consumers who take the hit.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:20 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:21 am
mrblackbat wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:41 pm

I can't really see an argument for first past the post over proportional representation.
Well I could give several, not necessarily my own opinions, but which are valid arguments. We held a referendum not long ago where the majority chose to stick with FFP - I know there's many who are arguing otherwise at the moment, but I believe if you go to the people to ask for a decision, you stick with it. From a practical point of view, FPP gives a definitive answer, you're not trying to simultaneously represent conflicting popular views and crazy extreme minorities. It also gives localised issues precedence, a community gets a candidate who represents them and gives them a voice in parliament. I disagree that it promotes a polarisation of views, 2 of the last 3 governments have been coalitions. What it does do is allow the most popular viewpoint to form a government and move forward when the vote is scattered amongst multiple options - Requiring a majority is only really practical when you have two choices, unless of course your aim is to create a permanent stalemate.

I voted to change the system when we were asked, I think there would be a benefit in making parties work together. But it's crazy to say it's a clear cut decision and nothing would be lost by changing. And that sums up what does need to change in politics, there needs to be recognition that the opposing view has weight too. But that's unlikely to happen, given the type of people it attracts.
We had a referendum where people voted to stay with FPP as opposed to be moving to STV. Different thing all together.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:43 pm

Are you saying STV isn't a form of proportional representation, or when you said "proportional representation" you actually meant another specific form of proportional representation that we have too guess at?

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/vot ... rable-vote

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Its a form, a sub par one, and in my opinion wouldn't actually deliver a true proportionally representative government.

And the vote was for that one form only. There was no option for "I'd like PR please but not this sack of shit implementation of it."

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:22 am

So... not "a different thing altogether" then. You know, you could just say "I was thinking of other forms of proportional representation, sorry that wasn't clear" and then continue the discussion.

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Re: Brexit....or in.

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:38 pm

It is a different thing all together.

The referendum was: do you want STV? Yes/no.

I'd like: Do you want a form of PR? Yes/no.

Very different questions.

We did not vote to stick with FFP, we voted to take up STV.

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