England Squad

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mrblackbat
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Re: England Squad

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Hilarious innit. It's usually us sabotaging ourselves.....

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Re: England Squad

Post by Gibbon » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:10 am

It’d be more interesting if every team had to have a player manager anyway. :D

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Re: England Squad

Post by Dan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:43 am

So.... VAR clearly working well then :roll:

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Re: England Squad

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:20 am

I honestly don't get the point if that's what they're going to do. The refereeing last night was god awful anyway; the bit near the end where their guy was just standing in front of the ball at a freekick was just comedy.

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Re: England Squad

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:28 am

For ten minutes or so, I was getting optimistic that we might get something from England this year, but then it turned into the usual tripe. I've always struggled to understand what Henderson offers other than momentum killing backwards passes and sloppy mistakes. Lingard is at least a bit more positive but seems to always be reacting to the ball coming to him rather than anticipating it. Alli and Sterling were both well below their best, and Walker's wasted as a centre half. It was only when Loftus-Cheek came on that we actually had someone making Tunisia work - no surprise he forced the corner we got the winner from. It may have been a more comfortable scoreline with different refereeing but we didn't look convincing.

On a side note, can anyone understand how VAR works? It just seems to be a random event with no consistency how its used from one game to the next. :yeahright:

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Re: England Squad

Post by Dan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:42 am

I suppose the downside to VAR is that you've still got referees watching it. If there's a "clear and obvious" incident the ref misses, they should tell him. We can only assume that the referee on the pitch, the two assistants, and however many are in VAR HQ all came to the conclusion that Kane hadn't been wrestled down twice and neither incident was foul play.

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Re: England Squad

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:57 am

Dan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:42 am
I suppose the downside to VAR is that you've still got referees watching it. If there's a "clear and obvious" incident the ref misses, they should tell him. We can only assume that the referee on the pitch, the two assistants, and however many are in VAR HQ all came to the conclusion that Kane hadn't been wrestled down twice and neither incident was foul play.
I heard on the radio that the ref still has final say and can over-rule the VAR conclusion. Which if true is crazy but totally believable given this has been decided by FIFA... I saw it work perfectly in the Sweden game where you could understand the ref thinking the South Korean defender had won the ball when the replays showed he didn't. Which leaves me wondering if they're only trying to correct where the ref has seen an incident and got it wrong, rather than pick up things he's apparently missed altogether? But none of it seems very clear, and it seems inevitable that the most memorable thing from this world cup will be that a team is going to get knocked out because of an incomprehensible use of the technology.

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Re: England Squad

Post by Dan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:10 am

I can understand the referee being able to overrule the VAR, in the same way that he can overrule his assistants, but what I can't understand is why the ref hasn't been called over at all to watch either of the two incidents. I thought the whole point of it was that VAR HQ can see the coverage from better angles, can call him over to the screen for a better look at something he may have got wrong, let him see a few angles, and make it easier for him to eventually get the important decisions (such as penalties and disallowed goals) right.

If he's had another look and decided that we didn't get a penalty, then fine, at least the process has worked and the ref is just incredibly poor, but for him to not even get a second chance on two penalty decisions that were clearly wrong is ridiculous.

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Re: England Squad

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:43 am

Dan wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:10 am
I can understand the referee being able to overrule the VAR, in the same way that he can overrule his assistants, but what I can't understand is why the ref hasn't been called over at all to watch either of the two incidents. I thought the whole point of it was that VAR HQ can see the coverage from better angles, can call him over to the screen for a better look at something he may have got wrong, let him see a few angles, and make it easier for him to eventually get the important decisions (such as penalties and disallowed goals) right.

If he's had another look and decided that we didn't get a penalty, then fine, at least the process has worked and the ref is just incredibly poor, but for him to not even get a second chance on two penalty decisions that were clearly wrong is ridiculous.
The problem is always that FIFA have got a warped perspective of what the referee is there for. They are more bothered about having the authority of the ref questioned than getting the right decisions. Cricket had a problem when they first started using videos where they still allowed umpires to make judgement calls and human errors with LBW decisions, even after watching a replay. They've at least fixed it now so that the rule is always the same. From what I've seen so far, football is doing exactly the same - the process of reviewing an incident seems to be based on discretion rather than following a clear and consistent procedure. Maybe what they really need is TV editors watching for things rather than refs, they always pick up on those off the ball incidents to show viewers within seconds of them happening.


Unless of course the referees are deliberately getting things wrong... :yeahright:

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Re: England Squad

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:52 am

Well the ref last night failed to enforce the ten yard rule on a freekick, running off instead and waving for Trippier to take the freekick despite a Tunisian standing over the ball so I think "shit ref" is definitely in play here....

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Re: England Squad

Post by Dan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:08 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:43 am
Unless of course the referees are deliberately getting things wrong... :yeahright:
Almost as if someone in the host country has decided which nations they don't like, and encouraged the referees to favour them less :yeahright:

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Re: England Squad

Post by mcteeth » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:11 pm

My own speculation is whether a decision has been made on what VAR is and isn't used for, so for example for penalties and red cards I think it isn't going to be used and has been already for just penalties.

Whilst both incidents on Kane were very obvious penalties I suspect the fear is if you start using VAR for any incident in the box with players tussling then you'd never actually get the game played.

But then the counter to that is that because the 3 VAR officials are watching everything in Moscow I don't understand how they aren't telling the referee of something as blatant as last night.

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Re: England Squad

Post by mcteeth » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:19 pm

Despite the fact that there was still a sizable chunk of the game where it felt like typical tournament England it felt like there was a lot more to be positive about than usual, except for Henderson.

The opening 15-20 mins we were excellent and possibly the most exciting attacking play we've seen from any side in their opening games so far, it was just badly let down by the usually clinical Lingard and Sterling with his usual needing 5 clear chances to score as per at Man City despite how good a player he is.

Southgate was right, we were patient unlike England sides of old and he made exactly the right substitutions as Rashford and Loftus-Cheek made a big difference.

Henderson I just don't understand, essentially under no pressure for most of the match he always plays within a tunnel of pitch he's facing when he receives the ball. Without any thought he just knocks it back or sideways when if he would just receive the ball on the half turn and open out to the rest of the pitch he's see space and forward options.

Still think it is a bit of a shame Chalobah got injured this season as I think he could have made that spot his for the tournament.

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Re: England Squad

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pm

mcteeth wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:11 pm
My own speculation is whether a decision has been made on what VAR is and isn't used for, so for example for penalties and red cards I think it isn't going to be used and has been already for just penalties.

Whilst both incidents on Kane were very obvious penalties I suspect the fear is if you start using VAR for any incident in the box with players tussling then you'd never actually get the game played.

But then the counter to that is that because the 3 VAR officials are watching everything in Moscow I don't understand how they aren't telling the referee of something as blatant as last night.
Nor why, if those weren't penalties, the decision against Nigeria wasn't overturned by VAR on checking....

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Re: England Squad

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:28 pm

mcteeth wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:11 pm
My own speculation is whether a decision has been made on what VAR is and isn't used for, so for example for penalties and red cards I think it isn't going to be used and has been already for just penalties.

Whilst both incidents on Kane were very obvious penalties I suspect the fear is if you start using VAR for any incident in the box with players tussling then you'd never actually get the game played.

But then the counter to that is that because the 3 VAR officials are watching everything in Moscow I don't understand how they aren't telling the referee of something as blatant as last night.
I think rather than having the game stopped for frequent fouls, players would have to adapt to playing a cleaner game to avoid giving away lots of penalties. And if they don't, keep giving the fouls. I don't see how it can be a "fear" that you stop the game too much to penalise cheats? Only a small percentage of the game is actually spent in the penalty areas so I think it will be easy to manage with the right attitude. But as I said before, FIFA seem to think it's more important to pretend their refs don't make human errors than make the game a fairer contest.

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