The VAR again!!!

Discuss all International football at senior and youth levels
Post Reply
daib0
Valued squad member
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Spain - England
Contact:

The VAR again!!!

Post by daib0 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:26 pm

Last night's match in Paris was decided by a penalty for hand ball given by the ref using VAR. All three ex footballers on the TV panel (Ferdinand, Owen and Hargreaves) were adamant that it wasn't hand ball but the ref in attendance disagreed stating hat as the laws stood at present it was. Surely if there is such a disagreement the laws of the game need clarifying. Surely hand ball was meant to mean that a hand was deliberately used to block the ball.

Even if it wasn't obviously "deliberate" it DID alter substantially the course of the ball. That's NOT the fault of the striker making a shot, so SHOULD be taken into account!!!


Opinions???

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 27614
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by Rover the Top » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:36 am

Not seen this incident, but I did see one given against Man City in their game against Schalke that left me fuming. Not least because the idiot referee in the tv studio insisted a fraction of a second was enough time to react and move your arm away from a ball kicked straight at it.

Apparently the handball rule is to be revised from the summer to penalise players who have their arms away from their bodies. That's not the rule now though, but it seems to be what the var refs are judging on. Which is a huge problem.

User avatar
Gibbon
Promising manager
Posts: 18224
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:54 am
Location: Location: Location
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by Gibbon » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:59 am

As I saw it, the main bone of contention was that the shot was going well over the bar until it hit the player.

daib0
Valued squad member
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Spain - England
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by daib0 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:47 pm

so the VAR is not really helping to clear things up then?!

User avatar
Dan
Unemployed ex-pro
Posts: 6960
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:08 am
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by Dan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:54 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:59 am
As I saw it, the main bone of contention was that the shot was going well over the bar until it hit the player.
I've seen a few pundits saying that, and surely it shouldn't matter at all. You could slice a shot towards the corner flag and if a defender handles it in the area on the way it would still be handball and a penalty.

Having seen it, there's no way it was intentional. He's turned and jumped with his back to the ball to block the shot, and it's hit the back of his arm. There's no way his arm could have been anywhere else.

People talk about VAR like there's an AI system somewhere making the decisions. It's the same referee, being given a second chance on a decision he may have missed by looking at a replay. If he's given an incorrect decision it's his interpretations of the rules that's the issue.


User avatar
mrblackbat
Promising manager
Posts: 15211
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by mrblackbat » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:15 am

Dan wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:54 pm
Gibbon wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:59 am
As I saw it, the main bone of contention was that the shot was going well over the bar until it hit the player.
I've seen a few pundits saying that, and surely it shouldn't matter at all. You could slice a shot towards the corner flag and if a defender handles it in the area on the way it would still be handball and a penalty.

Having seen it, there's no way it was intentional. He's turned and jumped with his back to the ball to block the shot, and it's hit the back of his arm. There's no way his arm could have been anywhere else.

People talk about VAR like there's an AI system somewhere making the decisions. It's the same referee, being given a second chance on a decision he may have missed by looking at a replay. If he's given an incorrect decision it's his interpretations of the rules that's the issue.

The argument that it wasn't on target is laughable. Crosses aren't on target; they can't be a penalty!!!

There are a couple of clear problems:

First the impression that a foul for a penalty somehow should be a more serious foul than elsewhere on the pitch. There should be no difference; all those little niggly fouls given in the centre of the pitch should be penaltues if they occur in the box; the punishment is higher because there's a higher likelihood they're preventing a goal, but that has nothing to do with whether it's a foul or not.

Second, over analysing slow motion replays makes everything seem worse. The slow mo should only be used to determine if contact is made, be it with the hand or in the case of a foul, between the players. Football is a fast game, let the decisions be made reviewing at normal speed. The slow mo makes it look like someone deliberately moved their hand towards the ball, or turn that obvious 50/50 ball into an horrific challenge where the guy clearly intended to break someone's legs....

User avatar
Gibbon
Promising manager
Posts: 18224
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:54 am
Location: Location: Location
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by Gibbon » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:34 pm

I've thought this about Slo-Mo replays. Slowed down footage can be completely misleading if you aren't properly trained to take into account reaction times etc... I'm not convinced officials are properly schooled in the use of the tech.

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 27614
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:57 am

I think officials just enjoy being twats. :shrug:

The problem with the rules of football (or maybe the appeal) is that they're written to be subjective. They're open to abuse and mean referees become an active element in determining the results of games. And now we have VAR amplifying how counter-intuitive the decisions referees make are. Unless there's some effort to irradicate the grey areas in the rules, the loopholes that allow two valid but conflicting interpretations to exist, then VAR solves nothing.

User avatar
Rover the Top
Experienced manager
Posts: 27614
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:39 am
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:00 pm

Don't know if anyone's been watching the women's world cup, but the England v Cameroon game was crazy. I've got serious reservations about how VAR is used for some of the more subjective incidents, but the offside rule is pretty clinical. However, when the replay correctly reversed disallowing a second England goal just before half time, the Cameroon players lost it - they refused to kick off, they protested to the ref pointing to the screen, and held an on field meeting amongst themselves before finally getting on with the game.

Then, early in the second half, Cameroon thought they'd scored, only for VAR to rule it out for a very close offside. Again, Cameroon protested, pointed at the screens and pleaded with the ref to change her mind. Even after the game they've maintained they've been cheated. It's difficult to see how?

The real problem with the VAR system came later in the game, when the ref looked at replays of what seemed like a clear foul for a penalty to England, and yet decided not to give it. Presumably she was concerned about the reaction of the Cameroon players to a third decision against them.

User avatar
Hudson
Regular international
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:45 pm
Contact:

Re: The VAR again!!!

Post by Hudson » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:38 pm

The ref was shocking, no consistency and had no control over the game whatsoever. Cameroon could have had 3 players sent off - the one who spat at Duggan, the one who elbowed Parris and that bad foul on Houghton right near the end.

Post Reply