General Election

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mrblackbat
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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:15 pm

But if it's an opposition of remain then the government should surely have a majority, else the remain faction wouldn't ne in opposition. And if the government (I.e. leave) have a majority, then remain becomes moot as we'll just leave the EU.

So perhaps rejoin might be the new opposition....

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm

Meanwhile, Farage has managed to undo any credibility he might have somehow garnered by leaving UKIP with his comments at a right wing Australian conference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49317656

Definitely not racist though.

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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:37 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:15 pm
And if the government (I.e. leave) have a majority, then remain becomes moot as we'll just leave the EU.
About 80 percent of parliament was voted in on a 'respect the referendum' manifesto in 2017... How's that going?... 😄
Last edited by theadore on Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:42 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm
Meanwhile, Farage has managed to undo any credibility he might have somehow garnered by leaving UKIP with his comments at a right wing Australian conference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49317656

Definitely not racist though.
Yup... Barely bothering to hide it.

Still... The backlash from the brexit supporters who 'the left' (dun-dun-dun) always wrongly label as racist must've been pretty severe? I mean they'll be falling over themselves to lead the condemnation and show how truly not racist they really are... Right?

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:17 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm
Meanwhile, Farage has managed to undo any credibility he might have somehow garnered by leaving UKIP with his comments at a right wing Australian conference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49317656

Definitely not racist though.
Whilst it's potentially awkward for a politician to have a few digs at the royal family, what's racist about his comments?

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:09 am

theadore wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:41 pm
Yup... Terrible execution... I know a fair few greens who are not very happy at all.

(That said, I read a tweet thread this morning claiming they're were no 'left wingers'... I'm sorry but if your politics is so out there that Caroline Lucas is a centrist them you need too have a word with yourself)

Feels like there is a grain of a good idea in here though... The government has spent 3 years on the tyre fire that is brexit and ignoring everything else... The so called opposition still support brexit, but disagree on everything in only lazy reactionary terms... But crucially have absolutely no new ideas to break the log jam with the EU.

If parliament is going to continue its brexit navel gazing for the foreseeable which seems likely then a loose coalition of remain feels like the opposition that parliament needs to become functional again.
I'm not sure what the grain of a good idea is? She wants to subvert our democratic conventions whilst being blatantly sexist from the right's perspective, and suspiciously racist from the left's, and calls it "national unity". Feels a bit like communist countries including the word "democratic" in their official names.

We've had remainers controlling the government, and remainers opposing them since we had a national vote and a decision to not remain. It's why we're in a mess, there's been chance after chance to leave with an agreement in place with the EU and these politicians have played silly games to serve their short term self-interest. And now the thing they wanted to avoid most looks like the most likely outcome.

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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:23 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:17 am
mrblackbat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm
Meanwhile, Farage has managed to undo any credibility he might have somehow garnered by leaving UKIP with his comments at a right wing Australian conference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49317656

Definitely not racist though.
Whilst it's potentially awkward for a politician to have a few digs at the royal family, what's racist about his comments?
"Prince harry was great when he was wearing nazi uniforms, but now the 'evil' brown person has come along..."
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:09 am
I'm not sure what the grain of a good idea is? She wants to subvert our democratic conventions whilst being blatantly sexist from the right's perspective, and suspiciously racist from the left's, and calls it "national unity". Feels a bit like communist countries including the word "democratic" in their official names.

We've had remainers controlling the government, and remainers opposing them since we had a national vote and a decision to not remain. It's why we're in a mess, there's been chance after chance to leave with an agreement in place with the EU and these politicians have played silly games to serve their short term self-interest. And now the thing they wanted to avoid most looks like the most likely outcome.
picking up the key points as usual... :roll:

yes - all remainers when they don't do what you want... no matter how many times they say they're committed to leaving. We haven't been able to make a decent deal in my opinion... partly because leaving is a terrible idea and no agreement will be as good as the deal we have now, despite being promised milk and honey by the leave side during the election.

Mostly though - democracy has been on holiday for a while now... we now have a PM committed to bludgeoning through a no deal for electoral purposes, who was threatening to suspend parliament altogether to stop anyone standing in his way and we're talking about the authoritarian tendencies of a pie in the sky idea from a 1 MP party?

Lucas came up with a shocking plan... which I said... but if we had a remain opposition at least we might get back to talking about what we want post-EU Britain to look like, rather than the last 2 years of boiling the whole thing down to sketchy economic forecasts and parrotting "Obviously we're committed to leaving but we're doing F all about it."

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:44 am

theadore wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:23 am

"Prince harry was great when he was wearing nazi uniforms, but now the 'evil' brown person has come along..."
That's an interpretation you're putting on it, not what he said. :roll: Since he got married, Harry's annoyed royalists by trying to keep his baby private, annoyed republicans by spending taxpayers' money on a new home because of a spat with his brother, and has suddenly become more political which is controversial for any royal. these are valid criticisms that have affected popularity and have nothing to do with race whatsoever. If you can't see past the colour of someone's skin when they come in for individual criticism, then you're the one with the problem.

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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:19 am

No you're right... It's definitely only racist of you say the actual words

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:14 am

theadore wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:23 am


picking up the key points as usual... :roll:

yes - all remainers when they don't do what you want... no matter how many times they say they're committed to leaving. We haven't been able to make a decent deal in my opinion... partly because leaving is a terrible idea and no agreement will be as good as the deal we have now, despite being promised milk and honey by the leave side during the election.
You can turn all that round, you think leaving is a "terrible idea", therefore you think anyone who isn't arguing for revoking article 50 is "committed to leaving", despite them voting down all possible ways for that to happen. We haven't struck up a decent deal because the people negotiating it, like you, didn't believe they could get one. The leavers who believed in the opportunities were sidelined. It could have been different, but we're where we are because a majority of MPs disagree with what a majority of the electorate instructed them to do. That's where democracy has fallen down, and it won't be rectified by a power-grab from a coalition of MPs who want to continue opposing the referendum result.

I think blackbat is right, "rejoin" should be the opposing view now.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:41 am

theadore wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:19 am
No you're right... It's definitely only racist of you say the actual words
Well... it's only racism if you reference the race of the person in some way in making the criticism. Otherwise it's just criticism. :shrug:

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:22 am

You're not racist if you only infer racism.... :roll: :yeahright:

So, back on the labour party, you definitely agree that Jeremy Corbyn is not anti semitic, then, because he's never actually said anything anti-semitic?

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:54 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:22 am
You're not racist if you only infer racism.... :roll: :yeahright:

So, back on the labour party, you definitely agree that Jeremy Corbyn is not anti semitic, then, because he's never actually said anything anti-semitic?
:lol:

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Re: General Election

Post by mcteeth » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:21 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:54 am
mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:22 am
You're not racist if you only infer racism.... :roll: :yeahright:

So, back on the labour party, you definitely agree that Jeremy Corbyn is not anti semitic, then, because he's never actually said anything anti-semitic?
:lol:
Checkmate :mygod:

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:14 am
theadore wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:23 am


picking up the key points as usual... :roll:

yes - all remainers when they don't do what you want... no matter how many times they say they're committed to leaving. We haven't been able to make a decent deal in my opinion... partly because leaving is a terrible idea and no agreement will be as good as the deal we have now, despite being promised milk and honey by the leave side during the election.
You can turn all that round, you think leaving is a "terrible idea", therefore you think anyone who isn't arguing for revoking article 50 is "committed to leaving", despite them voting down all possible ways for that to happen. We haven't struck up a decent deal because the people negotiating it, like you, didn't believe they could get one. The leavers who believed in the opportunities were sidelined. It could have been different, but we're where we are because a majority of MPs disagree with what a majority of the electorate instructed them to do. That's where democracy has fallen down, and it won't be rectified by a power-grab from a coalition of MPs who want to continue opposing the referendum result.

I think blackbat is right, "rejoin" should be the opposing view now.
We have struck up a decent deal because there are insurmountable contradictory problems with doing so. You cannot have an open border with a country not in your customs union. You cannot allow a country to negotiate it's own trade deals whilst part of a customs union. Ireland and the UK do not want a hard land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and the UK wants to negotiate it's own trade deals.

:shrug:

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