General Election

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:38 pm

RoverthePennines wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:12 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:52 pm
What are the Chief Rabbi's ties to Boris Johnson? I've seen he issued a public statement referring to him as a "friend" when he became PM, but I've seen on Twitter that he did the same when May became PM, his predecessor welcomed Blair in the same way too. I'm not sure there's too much to be read into that given it's played down that Corbyn used the same word to refer to Hamas. Is there anything else that links them?

Beyond that, I think we're in to degrees of severity - the timing is extraordinary, but is that because of political bias or because the problem has grown to the point he cannot remain silent? I'm lead to believe a large proportion of the Jewish community would normally support Labour, so that's a considerarion. Whilst the Tories attract racists too, do they handle the problem as ineffectively? The AS issue has somehow been allowed to snowball into a big issue, from within the party itself. The thing that's stood out to me is that with every highlighted incident, you don't have to look far to find Labour apologists trying to deflect from or discredit the claims. The reaction to his comments goes some way to proving the point.
The quote regarding friendship was what I was referring to, and had not considered it against Corbyn/ Hamas, or known about regarding May and Blair, so I have operated on a presumption that admittedly weakens a lot of what I've said.

I agree in regards to degrees of severity. My view is that to a person of moderate and reasonable standing, there are accusations, from top to bottom, that there are morally reprehensible behaviours and attitudes in both the Labour and Tory parties (and Ann Widdecombe). Sadly it threatens to overshadow the actual policies in place.

We're at a point where if one is determined to support either party, it almost impossible to use a narrative of discrimination to differ between the two. But instead of then using policy and manifesto separate them, as well as the rest of the candidates, the current climate of one-upmanship and outrage is destabilising a critical election period. What is worse is that it is a process the media has bought into, both left and right, and it results in this distasteful and unproductive question of who/ what is worse - to which there is no palatable answer.
Yep largely agree with that. Integrity has been seriously lacking in politics for a long time, we seem to be getting more division with everyone seemingly too scared to be honest. I wonder if it really would be political suicide to say they can't fix everything but they'll give it their best shot?

Oh and on those "friendships"... it was Daniel Finkelstein who was tweeting about it being standard practice to refer to PMs as "friends", but here's a couple of examples I found:

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/ther ... er-1.60432
In a statement following the dinner, Rabbi Mirvis paid tribute to Mrs May, who was becoming Prime Minister "at a time of great political, social and economic uncertainty".

He added: "Few people are more talented or better qualified to tackle these immense challenges. I recall the speed and the sensitivity with which she reached out to the Jewish community following the terror attacks on Jewish targets in Europe last year. As she made clear then - 'Without its Jews, Britain would not be Britain'.

"She has proved herself to be a friend and champion of our community and of other faith communities who share her values of tolerance and understanding. I wish her every success as Prime Minister and look forward to building upon our warm relationship over the coming years”.

The Chief Rabbi also thanked David Cameron "for his deep friendship and for his unwavering commitment to promoting the values of decency, respect, liberty and responsibility, which we all hold so dear."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/ ... andsociety
{Former Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks} has regular contact with Tony Blair and describes as one of his "loveliest friendships" his connection with Gordon Brown.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:20 pm


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Re: General Election

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:04 am


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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:39 am

Michael Rosen who I follow due to his excellent kids books rather than his political posts, but this blog post is a blinder.

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:51 am

She wasn't very nice then.

And I don't mean May.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:56 am

And really, the first female MP was Sinn Fein's https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constance_Markievicz who refused to take her seat.

But still: the first female sitting MP is worthy of recognition, despite her views, same with the first female PM etc.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:09 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:56 am
And really, the first female MP was Sinn Fein's https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constance_Markievicz who refused to take her seat.

But still: the first female sitting MP is worthy of recognition, despite her views, same with the first female PM etc.
Worthy of recognition, but should also be condemned for her views. It's a similar dillema to that concerning Confederate war statues such as that of General Nathan Bedford Forrest who was a Slave owner and Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. His statue was removed, but arguably should have stood as a monument against those beliefs. Personally I would have commisioned a companion statue next to it that commemorated the end of slavery, something that towered over it and made sure that the history, both bad and good was there to be clearly read.

Regardless, with the conservatives going after labour for Anti-Semitism, it's hugely hypocritical for this statue to unveiled by May and visited by Johnson.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:31 pm

Oh of course it's hypocritical, but you'd need some form of moral and ethical code at all for that to be a concern.... ;)

But on a wider note it's something that I see dealt with inconsistently across all spheres. For example, Wagner wrote brilliant music, but was an horrific anti-semite. Does that mean his music is now tainted and not to be celebrated? I personally don't think so, as long as you don't revere the man but his music. I had a similar argument with some feminists recently about Scott Adams; his views are awful, but Dilbert is still very relevant and funny, especially for someone who works in software engineering.

At the same time, some crimes are happily forgotten or skirted over. When viewing the slave trade history often skirts over the black slaves which captured and sold people to the British and Dutch to transport. It doesn't really go into the treatment of the Irish when looking at the first and second world wars, nor that the British invented the concentration camp. Mandela's early terrorist career is excused at every opportunity. Criticism of Israel is immediately turned into anti semitism, and everyone turns a blind eye to the Saudis using British made bombs on civilians in Yemen whilst criticising Assad in Syria. And so on.

Ultimately everyone has some questionable views at some point, or looking from some angle.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:13 pm

Seems like a no-win situation, that one: celebrate a nasty piece of work or snub a significant moment of progress in our system. Either way, some one is going to have a whinge. Maybe we can turn it into a "look what happens when women get involved in politics?" moment?
Gibbon wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:09 pm
Regardless, with the conservatives going after labour for Anti-Semitism,
What, Ian Austin, Margaret Hodge, Luciana Berger, Tom Watson etc? It isn't the Tories who've made it a big issue.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:40 am

Just £100 in tax under Labour if you earn over £80k... :yeahright:

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:52 pm

I can confirm this is not the case.

However, I don't disagree with the policy. What I do disagree with is that it is all that's needed to fund the highly ambitious policies put forward by Labour, along with an increase in corporation tax to be possibly the highest level of tax on business in the world.

And whilst on that point, the idea that business pays tax is ludicrous: people pay tax. So, the increase in business rates will be passed on to their employees and consumers. Businesses that don't make profits don't hand out salary increases, offer lower wages for new staff, don't grow and so don't contribute to increasing net tax that successful businesses do. The point was made this morning on R4 that although we have a lower tax rate on business than in France and Germany, we generate more tax from business than those two nations do.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:28 pm

I've always been bemused at the left's ability to view "business" as a stand-alone entity. It's higlighted by the ideological idiocy surrounding the NHS - who cares if the doctors, nurses and other service providers are paid directly from a central pot or through an intermediary so long as it remains free to all at point of delivery? As you say, increased corp tax increases will hit employees, consumers, pension holders, and so on. A bad idea borne out of good intentions is still a bad idea.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:59 pm


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Re: General Election

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