General Election

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Rover the Top
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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:59 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:21 pm

Yes the latter, it seems to be becoming more and more common for racism (and extended to discrimination in general) to be being used as a foil to damage someone rather than having any actual ground in genuine racist behaviour.
Well this was the inevitable problem with switching the emphasis from whether offence was intended to whether it was taken. It turns the accusation into a possible weapon. And as you say, it's now used all the time - Danny Baker and Alastair Stewart lost their jobs for the wrong tweet to or about the wrong person, Laurence Fox gets labelled racist and death threats for daring to point out that anyone can be racist to anyone, and now even the Conservatives defend Priti Patel by saying opponents would cry racism rather than assess the claims (although that Guardian cartoon... :doh: ). 17.4m were instantly branded racist 4 years ago for how they voted in a democratic referendum, regardless of their reasons. PC went mad a long, long time ago, why's nobody done anything to sort it out?

As for Trevor Phillips specifically, I saw the letter Labour had sent him, and it's like something out of 1984. I heard a few commentators defend Labour by saying they had to follow a process if there'd been a complaint. But it's clear from the letter a judgement has already been passed - it actually asks if he regrets his comments and if he intends to share similar content in future. Bizarrely, they suggest he can contact the Samaritans for support, but not, say, a lawyer... :? Beyond that, the evidence against him is that he made some references to muslims and quoted Enoch Powell one time. If that's the bar and context is not important, it only emphasises the anti-Semitism problem in the party.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:58 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:59 am
17.4m were instantly branded racist 4 years ago for how they voted in a democratic referendum, regardless of their reasons.
I don’t remember anyone saying that, but I do remember people saying something along the lines of ‘not everyone who voted leave was racist, but all racists voted leave’.

Obviously an over simplification, I’m sure plenty of racists didn’t vote at all and a few possibly voted remain. However, every racist I know did indeed vote leave.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am

Gibbon wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:58 am
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:59 am
17.4m were instantly branded racist 4 years ago for how they voted in a democratic referendum, regardless of their reasons.
I don’t remember anyone saying that, but I do remember people saying something along the lines of ‘not everyone who voted leave was racist, but all racists voted leave’.

Obviously an over simplification, I’m sure plenty of racists didn’t vote at all and a few possibly voted remain. However, every racist I know did indeed vote leave.
How many racists do you know?

Not that I expect you to listen to the same shows I have, but I've heard plenty of randoms ring in to explain how they thought the only reason to leave the EU was racism. Vince Cable and Diane Abbott are but two who have been called out for implying as much - Cable saying Leave voters wanted a time when "faces were white", Abbott saying we wanted "less foreign-looking people". When you look at a photo of the EU leaders, you could actually think they were reasons to remain, but that's another issue. Stewart Lee made a "joke" that not all leave voters were racist, some were cunts too. Funny, not in the way he probably intended, but because it showed up his own level of bigotry.

Racism can manifest itself in many different ways, and it's only if you take a very narrow definition that you can associate it with leaving the EU. But just to tie back to blackbat's point, the reason why it's brought up in relation to the referendum is to shut down the opposing point of view, in a "well you sided with the racists" way.

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:13 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am
Racism can manifest itself in many different ways, and it's only if you take a very narrow definition that you can associate it with leaving the EU.
Surely you can take a really wide definition and associate it with leaving the EU with more ease - like by saying that wanting to leave the EU is racist ;)

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:19 pm

Ethiaa wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:13 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am
Racism can manifest itself in many different ways, and it's only if you take a very narrow definition that you can associate it with leaving the EU.
Surely you can take a really wide definition and associate it with leaving the EU with more ease - like by saying that wanting to leave the EU is racist ;)
Wanting to stay in the EU is racist. :shrug: It's pretty much there in the name.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:51 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am
How many racists do you know?
More than I'd like. Do you not know any?

Maybe it's a drawback to living in a rural community in a very white part of the world, but I find it crops up repeatedly in the school parent facebook groups that seem to be a vital part of having school age children. Last year the school were celebrating multicuturalism and ran a non-uniform day where the kids got to dress up as someone from another country. There was at least one kid in the playground with black face.

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Re: General Election

Post by Ethiaa » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:51 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:19 pm
Ethiaa wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:13 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am
Racism can manifest itself in many different ways, and it's only if you take a very narrow definition that you can associate it with leaving the EU.
Surely you can take a really wide definition and associate it with leaving the EU with more ease - like by saying that wanting to leave the EU is racist ;)
Wanting to stay in the EU is racist. :shrug: It's pretty much there in the name.
You take my point then. Wider makes it easier!

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:55 pm

Gibbon wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:51 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am
How many racists do you know?
More than I'd like. Do you not know any?

Probably, but not socially well enough to discuss how they vote. It's pertinent to your anecdotal evidence.
Gibbon wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:51 pm
There was at least one kid in the playground with black face.
That's a shame for them, but at least there's a career in Canadian politics ahead... Still, their parents are probably going to be pissed off when they find out what leaving the EU actually means for immigration...

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:01 pm

You clearly haven’t been around many parental facebook groups post referendum. A lot of them were shouting it from the rooftops when they ‘won’.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:56 pm

Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:19 pm
Ethiaa wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:13 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am
Racism can manifest itself in many different ways, and it's only if you take a very narrow definition that you can associate it with leaving the EU.
Surely you can take a really wide definition and associate it with leaving the EU with more ease - like by saying that wanting to leave the EU is racist ;)
Wanting to stay in the EU is racist. :shrug: It's pretty much there in the name.
Now, do you actually believe that, or are you just trying to score the point?

To give an idea of how absurd it is, let's look at wanting to stay in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; it's clearly racist as it's pretty much there in the name.....

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:03 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:56 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:19 pm

Wanting to stay in the EU is racist. :shrug: It's pretty much there in the name.
Now, do you actually believe that, or are you just trying to score the point?

To give an idea of how absurd it is, let's look at wanting to stay in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; it's clearly racist as it's pretty much there in the name.....
Yes, pretty much having borders is fundamentally racist. What's the purpose other than to separate "your" people from the rest of the world? The whole notion that it's racist to leave the EU comes from the belief that British nationality is a thing. One aspect of forming the EU was to eliminate problems those borders caused within Europe. But it's also an exclusive club, dominated by the rich colonial nations who wanted to keep themselves ahead of emerging developing countries. It gives preferential treatment to members of the EU "tribe", discriminates against others, often the poorer people of the world. It's intrinsically racist, in a cold, calculating and socially acceptable way.

For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting that's why people voted to remain. I suspect many probably didn't and don't think of it in that context - dare I suggest you wouldn't have accused me of "point scoring" if you had? As you said at the beginning, "racism" has become a term to injure opposition with - it was brought into the referendum debate to create a false sense of good and evil to what was in reality a much more mundane choice.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:18 am

Rover the Top wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:03 am
mrblackbat wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:56 pm
Rover the Top wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:19 pm

Wanting to stay in the EU is racist. :shrug: It's pretty much there in the name.
Now, do you actually believe that, or are you just trying to score the point?

To give an idea of how absurd it is, let's look at wanting to stay in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; it's clearly racist as it's pretty much there in the name.....
Yes, pretty much having borders is fundamentally racist. What's the purpose other than to separate "your" people from the rest of the world? The whole notion that it's racist to leave the EU comes from the belief that British nationality is a thing. One aspect of forming the EU was to eliminate problems those borders caused within Europe. But it's an exclusive club, dominated by the rich colonial nations who wanted to keep themselves ahead of emerging developing countries. It gives preferential treatment to members of the EU "tribe", discriminates against others, often the poorer people of the world. It's intrinsically racist, in a cold, calculating and socially acceptable way.

For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting that's why people voted to remain. I suspect many probably didn't and don't think of it in that context - dare I suggest you wouldn't have accused me of "point scoring" if you had? As you said at the beginning, "racism" has become a term to injure opposition with - it was brought into the referendum debate to create a false sense of good and evil to what was in reality a much more mundane choice.
It's a much less exclusive club than membership of the United Kingdom. Which is the entire point. More countries are joining the EU, and I think somewhere along the line you've managed to get a really warped view of the "European Tribe", as you call it.

For all the flaws of the EU, the existence of it is of benefit to the world, far more than it would be if a bunch of isolationist countries (like the UK now) would be. Take Turkey for example: they're not in the EU not for financial reasons, but for humanitarian reasons, which are curbed by their desire to join.

And that's where I think your entire reasoning goes wrong. You somehow present the jingoism as being the EU, whereas leaving somehow eradicated it. Which is nonsense. You claim that the people that voted to leave the EU are unfairly judged as being "racist", yet immigration and refugees from Africa were major campaign parts during the referendum campaigns.... but then hey, in the past you've somehow tried to suggest that the campaigns had no/little effect on the results...

But ultimately, given your comment above: if borders are "racist", theb wanting to leave the EU (and so introducing a smaller area behind borders) is clearly more "racist" than remaining within the EU?

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:23 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:18 am

It's a much less exclusive club than membership of the United Kingdom. Which is the entire point. More countries are joining the EU, and I think somewhere along the line you've managed to get a really warped view of the "European Tribe", as you call it.
I don't understand your point? I've just said both the UK and the EU are racist by nature. It's not the number of people who are allowed to be included but the fact others are excluded that matters. Unless you're going to make a crazy argument akin to saying anti-Semitism isn't a problem because most people aren't Jewish, I don't see how any comparison of size is relevant? When the EU treats my in-laws equally to people born within its borders, I'll change my tune. Until then, I'll stick with my belief that we need less red tape and corrupt politicians. I respect you have a different view of what will make the world better, but the EU is in reality a very different beast to the ideals people talk about when defending it. And it doesn't follow that that makes the UK perfect, either.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:45 am

mrblackbat wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:18 am

But ultimately, given your comment above: if borders are "racist", theb wanting to leave the EU (and so introducing a smaller area behind borders) is clearly more "racist" than remaining within the EU?
Again, it's a curious notion that you think racism is judged on some kind of scale where it's ok so long as you can show something else is worse?
But the UK's borders exist whether we're in the EU or not. Being part of the EU does not replace that border, just adds another one. I guess you could argue for total unification of Europe to become one super state instead. But for economic and governance reasons I think it's better to go smaller.

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Re: General Election

Post by mrblackbat » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:25 pm

Congratulations in once again missing the point.

Sigh.

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