General Election

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Rover the Top
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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:41 am

Gibbon wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:02 pm
He was a brilliant man and the right one to lead us at that time. But I don’t think villain is too strong a word, even if I think it McDonnell is an idiot to use it. Churchill’s ruthlessness undoubtedly helped us win the war, but it also accomplished many other things, none of which should be swept under the carpet in the name of national pride.

Many people have called him much worse.
I read that list before, not one of the ten things mentioned is a clear black mark against him, the article gives another side to each one. It's mostly a mixture of him holidng views that are frowned upon now but were common during his time, and political disagreement. When you actually read up on the reason for calling him a "villain" cited by McDonnell, it shows "fake news" is not a new concept. But even if we put all that to the side, what's there to achieve by trying to rewrite perceptions of Churchill? Those who want to self-flagellate over the history of the UK can find plenty of ammo themselves. Political points can be scored more easily elsewhere. It says more about McDonnell - he's a key figure in a party rife with anti-semitsm accusations, and he's attacking a symbol of standing up to the most notorious anti-semite. It's not a good look...

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:34 pm

mrblackbat wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:37 pm
And three tories join. Oh Noes!
And Ian Austin has also quit Labour but not joined the other quitters. In the grand scheme of things, does it make much of a difference? I think the Conservative/DUP coalition still have a virtual majority with Sinn Fein not taking their seats. Other than causing a bit of embarassment for their old parties, I don't think they're affecting anything. And they'll probably lose their seats at the next election to new Conservative or Labour candidates

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:56 pm

Yeah, it all seems pretty pointless. Par for the course for our current crop of politicians.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:08 pm

Well it seems to have made both main leaders volte-face on what they've been promising for the last two years. Not really surprising that dithering May has backed down, she's always seemed like she's trying too hard to fool people she wasn't still a remainer. But Corbyn's blown out the water the notion that he's got more integrity than the average MP. And all they're doing is prolonging the uncertainty which is causing the biggest problems for business and the country. :shrug:

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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:22 am

to be honest - for most Labour people I speak to Corbyn's lack of integrity has been failing (until now) to follow through on his promise to follow the policy decided in conference on a second referendum.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:12 am

theadore wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:22 am
to be honest - for most Labour people I speak to Corbyn's lack of integrity has been failing (until now) to follow through on his promise to follow the policy decided in conference on a second referendum.
From what I recall, their policy at the conference depended on who was speaking at the time. Which is typical of their approach to policy, offer all options and leave the voter to decide which one they wanted to hear. They got their seats on a manifesto that promised to see Brexit through, but still managed to be vague enough about their intentions to keep remainer votes. Corbyn's got a reputation as a Eurosceptic, but I still get the impression he just likes to object to everything. At no point over the past 3-4 years has he shown any belief in the arguments for leaving the EU. He'll support a second referendum now because it's unlikely to happen but may stop further resignations from his MPs. It's the fun of being in opposition, you can promise what you like and not have to see it through, so long as you can remain unelectable. Which is easier said than done when the PM thinks leading the country is all about fobbing people off with empty catchphrases...

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Re: General Election

Post by theadore » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:37 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47414699

HasChrisGraylingResignedYet.Com

:shrug:

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:49 am

The no-ferries thing was better fodder for headline writers, but this is a bigger scandal. £33m blown for not following procedure? :roll:

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:29 pm

It's kind of amazing given how useless Theresa May proves herself to be on a daily basis, and how her cabinet embarass themselves on a regular basis, that the Tories are polling about 10 points ahead of Labour at the moment.

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Re: General Election

Post by Gibbon » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:15 am

I think we can agree that both the main parties are an embarrassment at the moment.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:28 am

I'm starting to wonder if May is hoping she ends up the same way as Spencer Perceval, it's the only way she'll salvage some of her reputation. Even with the more optimistic estimates of how many leave voters have changed their minds or dropped dead, there's still enough of us to win a landslide election for a party that will actually take us out of the EU. I think because remainers have been making most of the noise since the referendum, it's skewing perception of what needs to happen now. But if a leave campaign were to start up again, they've got a lot of extra ammunition with the way the politicians have behaved.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:03 pm

theadore wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:22 am
to be honest - for most Labour people I speak to Corbyn's lack of integrity has been failing (until now) to follow through on his promise to follow the policy decided in conference on a second referendum.
Now Labour are not backing today's amendment calling for a second referendum.... I suppose changing tact every week is an alternative to May putting forward the same plan to get voted down over again... :shrug:

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:15 pm

They’ve said they aren’t backing it because the timing isn’t right today, tonight is about extending A50 and buying more time. Even the official people’s vote campaign are saying now isn’t the time.

It’s only Soubry and the Irrelevant Party who are harping on about it.

Next week sounds like may be a full bid to get a 2nd vote in the commons.

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Re: General Election

Post by Rover the Top » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:52 pm

Jim wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:15 pm
They’ve said they aren’t backing it because the timing isn’t right today, tonight is about extending A50 and buying more time. Even the official people’s vote campaign are saying now isn’t the time.

It’s only Soubry and the Irrelevant Party who are harping on about it.

Next week sounds like may be a full bid to get a 2nd vote in the commons.
Yes it's just as hilarious that the campaign for having a 2nd referendum also don't want one... :shrug: I mean, I agree with them - a second vote would be a no-win situation for everyone, there isn't a way of framing the question or an outcome that would bring us any closer to resolution. But if you ask for an opportunity for ages then turn it down when it comes along, you just look stupid. Why does the timing matter if all they want to do is go back to the people, as they purport? ;)

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Re: General Election

Post by Jim » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:05 pm

I think the worry is like the infamous US habit of tacking distasteful policies/laws on to genuine, necessary bills (similar to the recent Trump federal shut-down over funding)... by amending the vote tonight to include people’s vote, as well as extending A50, they risk losing the vote because a lot of MPs who would happily extend A50 would not vote for a people’s vote under any circumstance.

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