Scottish Independence

[mrblackbat]

So Labour don't promote a welfare state?

[Rover the Top]

So Labour don't promote a welfare state?

Apparently not, Sheepy says it's not actual fact. Hard to think why there was any outrage about the Tories cutting tax credits since they don't exist...

[SheepShagginRover]

promising more free handouts and an easier life for nothing

Clearly, an unfair and unrealistic portrayal of the welfare state. Being on the dole is not an easy life by any stretch. A welfare state is necessary within society for those not in employment, education or training. Greater levels of overall employment to support it are preferable, but the welfare state is so misrepresented it's painful. The vast majority of the welfare bill is still in-work benefits, as too many British jobs aren't paying enough to actually survive on.

[Rover the Top]

Who said anything about being on the dole? Whether you like my phrasing or not is immaterial. It is a clear observable fact that Labour are the one of the two major parties promising more payouts in benefits. And therefore are more popular with the voters who are able to claim those benefits. Just like tax cuts are more popular with voters not taking from the system. The welfare state is misrepresented, it's been bloated to a level where it's not about just giving the essential to survive, it allows people to avoid the consequences of their life decisions. Just for example, take OSPP. That's not about survival, fathers could take paid leave if they wanted to. Sob stories about those at the very bottom of the chain mask the fact there is a need to trim back at an unsustainable system. We either spend in the short term and suffer even more in the future, or as blackbat says, cut back now and build when it's affordable.

[mrblackbat]

promising more free handouts and an easier life for nothing

Clearly, an unfair and unrealistic portrayal of the welfare state. Being on the dole is not an easy life by any stretch. A welfare state is necessary within society for those not in employment, education or training. Greater levels of overall employment to support it are preferable, but the welfare state is so misrepresented it's painful. The vast majority of the welfare bill is still in-work benefits, as too many British jobs aren't paying enough to actually survive on.

To actually "survive" on to a vastly inflated level of comfort, you mean. There are plenty of countries around the globe where people do way more than "survive" on far, far less.

You just have to look at the amount of migrants who wish to move here.

The problem is, currently we can't afford to pay for that welfare state. So the expectation that we continue to do so is clealry blinkered idealistic thinking. I'd love for there to be no poverty, here or wider in the world (it does amuse me that socialism only ever seems to exist in these weird artificial groups we create for ourselves called nations, but hey ho) but that comes with a price. The best method I see for that to happen is constant financial growth and investment in the technology industry - tech is the only thing that's going to have a significant impact on the standard of living in the long run. If by cutting back on public services now means we can reduce our debt and then invest that in the future into technology to increase our standard of living then we have to take the pain now.

The biggest problem in this is that people are selfish and are generally unable to see the bigger picture.

[mrblackbat]

And lets have another go.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotl ... s-39255256

If at first you don't succeed...

[Ethiaa]

Not sure it'll make it through the vote to have one in the first place

[mrblackbat]

We'll see.

[Ethiaa]

OR WILL WE!!!!???

[Rover the Top]

Lets have a vote!

[mrblackbat]

And then another one if it's not the result we want.

[Ethiaa]

Kinda inevitable wasn't it.

[Rover the Top]

It's a bit of an overreaction to the rugby score...

[Rover the Top]

Not sure if this belongs here or under general stupidity, but:

[mrblackbat]

As most people point out, less people in Scotland than London. I love their arguments against that though: "that's the point!!!".

I'm confused what their point is.